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	<title>Comments on: What is educational about this?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://kevinbussey.com/2008/10/15/what-is-educational-about-this/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/10/15/what-is-educational-about-this/</link>
	<description>confessions of a follower of Jesus Christ struggling to recover from legalism</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 01:43:07 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.5</generator>
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		<title>By: Kevin Bussey</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/10/15/what-is-educational-about-this/#comment-10850</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Bussey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:08:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=1230#comment-10850</guid>
		<description>Ben,

Thanks for your response. I've had people on this blog point out to me when I was wrong and THEY WERE RIGHT.  We all see things in different ways and that is how I learn from others.  Thanks for taking time to express your views.  I do respect them.

&lt;em&gt;Kevin Bussey's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ConfessionsOfARecoveringPharisee/~3/423526969/' rel="nofollow"&gt;God absent from debates&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben,</p>
<p>Thanks for your response. I&#8217;ve had people on this blog point out to me when I was wrong and THEY WERE RIGHT.  We all see things in different ways and that is how I learn from others.  Thanks for taking time to express your views.  I do respect them.</p>
<p><em>Kevin Bussey&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ConfessionsOfARecoveringPharisee/~3/423526969/' rel="nofollow">God absent from debates</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/10/15/what-is-educational-about-this/#comment-10847</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 06:02:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=1230#comment-10847</guid>
		<description>Slight update:  
This is sort of a double-post, because I just posted about "packing up," but I thought it was interesting that Kevin told me to check my angry spirit.  Because I have been having some soul-searching lately, and what I learned is that it is not enough to have good points, you also need to make those points in a godly way, otherwise even if you are making the right points, the devil can still win if you make them in an arrogant way.  

I have lately discovered that I am/was cursed with a sort of arrogance (the optimistic view is that I am no longer so afflicted, since I have labeled, repented, and asked God to deliver me from said curse).  On the one hand, I now feel that no matter how right we may feel, it does not justify giving our points in an unrestrained way, but on the other hand, the small shred of good that underlay my arrogance was that it is good to have a good opinion of your own intelligence, so long as you don't get carried away.  It would be bad to go so overboard with humility that you lost all confidence in your ability to keep up in a discussion.  

Anyways, I just wanted to update that I did do some soul-searching as of late and if I had a do-over, I think I could have handled the whole above list with a lot more restraint and possibly even more persuasiveness, if I did not make enemies by, as Kevin stated, not watching "my angry spirit."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Slight update:<br />
This is sort of a double-post, because I just posted about &#8220;packing up,&#8221; but I thought it was interesting that Kevin told me to check my angry spirit.  Because I have been having some soul-searching lately, and what I learned is that it is not enough to have good points, you also need to make those points in a godly way, otherwise even if you are making the right points, the devil can still win if you make them in an arrogant way.  </p>
<p>I have lately discovered that I am/was cursed with a sort of arrogance (the optimistic view is that I am no longer so afflicted, since I have labeled, repented, and asked God to deliver me from said curse).  On the one hand, I now feel that no matter how right we may feel, it does not justify giving our points in an unrestrained way, but on the other hand, the small shred of good that underlay my arrogance was that it is good to have a good opinion of your own intelligence, so long as you don&#8217;t get carried away.  It would be bad to go so overboard with humility that you lost all confidence in your ability to keep up in a discussion.  </p>
<p>Anyways, I just wanted to update that I did do some soul-searching as of late and if I had a do-over, I think I could have handled the whole above list with a lot more restraint and possibly even more persuasiveness, if I did not make enemies by, as Kevin stated, not watching &#8220;my angry spirit.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Caffeinated Thoughts - &#187; Twenty Items of Interest (v.35)</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/10/15/what-is-educational-about-this/#comment-10841</link>
		<dc:creator>Caffeinated Thoughts - &#187; Twenty Items of Interest (v.35)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:02:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=1230#comment-10841</guid>
		<description>[...] HT: Kevin Bussey [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] HT: Kevin Bussey [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ben</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/10/15/what-is-educational-about-this/#comment-10835</link>
		<dc:creator>ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 01:28:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=1230#comment-10835</guid>
		<description>Kevin, 
I am sorry about the labels.  In the future, I will be much more hesitant to stray from talking about the points you are making toward labeling the underlying attitude/position. 

I really do appreciate that you read the bad exegesis!  :)  My uncle read the soulforce stuff too and as far as I know, he too is unconvinced.  I think the most dangerous thing is when Christians aren't willing to even CONSIDER other points of view, but I have lots of respect for peeps who give new points of view a fair shake and then stick to their guns afterward.

Although I think my labels were restrained compared to truly angry name calling (because i honestly wasn't angry), I concede they were unnecessary to make my points, so I apologize again.  :)  

It's an interesting story... I never went on any field trips like that as a kid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,<br />
I am sorry about the labels.  In the future, I will be much more hesitant to stray from talking about the points you are making toward labeling the underlying attitude/position. </p>
<p>I really do appreciate that you read the bad exegesis!  <img src='http://kevinbussey.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  My uncle read the soulforce stuff too and as far as I know, he too is unconvinced.  I think the most dangerous thing is when Christians aren&#8217;t willing to even CONSIDER other points of view, but I have lots of respect for peeps who give new points of view a fair shake and then stick to their guns afterward.</p>
<p>Although I think my labels were restrained compared to truly angry name calling (because i honestly wasn&#8217;t angry), I concede they were unnecessary to make my points, so I apologize again.  <img src='http://kevinbussey.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s an interesting story&#8230; I never went on any field trips like that as a kid.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Bussey</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/10/15/what-is-educational-about-this/#comment-10831</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Bussey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:49:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=1230#comment-10831</guid>
		<description>Ben,

I've read Soulfource's stuff and in my opinion it is bad exegesis.  You are free to believe as you want. I won't make fun of your opinion I just believe you are wrong.  I think labels are lazy and I believe you have sunken to name calling.

&lt;em&gt;Kevin Bussey's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ConfessionsOfARecoveringPharisee/~3/421858662/' rel="nofollow"&gt;Catholic Church orders woman to stop spreading messages she says come from the Virgin Mary&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve read Soulfource&#8217;s stuff and in my opinion it is bad exegesis.  You are free to believe as you want. I won&#8217;t make fun of your opinion I just believe you are wrong.  I think labels are lazy and I believe you have sunken to name calling.</p>
<p><em>Kevin Bussey&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ConfessionsOfARecoveringPharisee/~3/421858662/' rel="nofollow">Catholic Church orders woman to stop spreading messages she says come from the Virgin Mary</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/10/15/what-is-educational-about-this/#comment-10829</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:45:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=1230#comment-10829</guid>
		<description>:)  
I am actually having a very good day, very little negative energy over here, I have friends who share your view, so no worries about my angry spirit.  I am not taking out a bad day on you or anything.  Although I admit I have strong feelings about human rights.  

The fact that without reading Reverend Mel White's interpretation of the passage from Romans on which you rely is the only reason I used the word arrogant--you are so sure your interpretation of Romans is correct and infallible, you do not bother to test that against a new point of view--are you afraid your conviction is not strong enough to withstand new information?  

The fact that as of now you still have not shown evidence you read his point of view is all I meant by "maintaining willful ignorance."  Not ignorant in a derogatory, general sense, merely ignorant insofar as you have shown no evidence that you have made an effort to understand my point of view before contradicting it.  

And homophobia, by definition, is an irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals.  You have displayed 2 of 3, by claiming there is a homosexual conspiracy to recruit new members, you have demonstrated irrational fear.  By tacitly supporting using the laws of this country to deny homosexuals their Constitutional rights, you are supporting discrimination.  If the shoe fits...

I merely use labels to speed up my communication of ideas, if you prefer, I could type out exactly what I mean when I call you ignorant, homophobic, and arrogant.  It will take longer, but at least it would show clearly I have not sunken to the level of angry name-calling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> <img src='http://kevinbussey.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
I am actually having a very good day, very little negative energy over here, I have friends who share your view, so no worries about my angry spirit.  I am not taking out a bad day on you or anything.  Although I admit I have strong feelings about human rights.  </p>
<p>The fact that without reading Reverend Mel White&#8217;s interpretation of the passage from Romans on which you rely is the only reason I used the word arrogant&#8211;you are so sure your interpretation of Romans is correct and infallible, you do not bother to test that against a new point of view&#8211;are you afraid your conviction is not strong enough to withstand new information?  </p>
<p>The fact that as of now you still have not shown evidence you read his point of view is all I meant by &#8220;maintaining willful ignorance.&#8221;  Not ignorant in a derogatory, general sense, merely ignorant insofar as you have shown no evidence that you have made an effort to understand my point of view before contradicting it.  </p>
<p>And homophobia, by definition, is an irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals.  You have displayed 2 of 3, by claiming there is a homosexual conspiracy to recruit new members, you have demonstrated irrational fear.  By tacitly supporting using the laws of this country to deny homosexuals their Constitutional rights, you are supporting discrimination.  If the shoe fits&#8230;</p>
<p>I merely use labels to speed up my communication of ideas, if you prefer, I could type out exactly what I mean when I call you ignorant, homophobic, and arrogant.  It will take longer, but at least it would show clearly I have not sunken to the level of angry name-calling.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Bussey</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/10/15/what-is-educational-about-this/#comment-10828</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Bussey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:36:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=1230#comment-10828</guid>
		<description>Ben,

I haven't called you "ignorant" like you have called me.  I haven't called you any names yet you are blasting my views.  I don't control what other people say.  I don't censor.  I haven't censored you.

How do you drag me into weapons?  How have I been unChristian?  I didn't say I don't love the teacher.  I just think it is wrong to do what she did.  Just like any other sin by anyone including me.  

You need to check your angry spirit.

&lt;em&gt;Kevin Bussey's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ConfessionsOfARecoveringPharisee/~3/421382626/' rel="nofollow"&gt;What is educational about this?&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben,</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t called you &#8220;ignorant&#8221; like you have called me.  I haven&#8217;t called you any names yet you are blasting my views.  I don&#8217;t control what other people say.  I don&#8217;t censor.  I haven&#8217;t censored you.</p>
<p>How do you drag me into weapons?  How have I been unChristian?  I didn&#8217;t say I don&#8217;t love the teacher.  I just think it is wrong to do what she did.  Just like any other sin by anyone including me.  </p>
<p>You need to check your angry spirit.</p>
<p><em>Kevin Bussey&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ConfessionsOfARecoveringPharisee/~3/421382626/' rel="nofollow">What is educational about this?</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/10/15/what-is-educational-about-this/#comment-10827</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:25:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=1230#comment-10827</guid>
		<description>Maintaining your willful ignorance of scripture while you sit idly by and support a movement to use the laws of the United States unconstitutionally, like weapons to further a misguided agenda of conformity and hate is wrong.  It is un-American and it is definitely not Christian.  Whether you act from a motivation of homophobia or a misguided notion of what YOUR rights are is unimportant.  People on your own list has used the word "disgust" to describe children attending a wedding!

You were not brought on this field trip.  No one is rubbing your nose in anything.  And the children have a right to go on educational field trips without the meddling of Christians who maintain this willful ignorance.  The children are learning about the laws of this country, and in San Francisco, gay marriage is legal--that fact should not be kept hidden from children no matter whether you are acting from homophobia or merely "don't rub my nose in it" -- whatever you would like to self-label that attitude.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maintaining your willful ignorance of scripture while you sit idly by and support a movement to use the laws of the United States unconstitutionally, like weapons to further a misguided agenda of conformity and hate is wrong.  It is un-American and it is definitely not Christian.  Whether you act from a motivation of homophobia or a misguided notion of what YOUR rights are is unimportant.  People on your own list has used the word &#8220;disgust&#8221; to describe children attending a wedding!</p>
<p>You were not brought on this field trip.  No one is rubbing your nose in anything.  And the children have a right to go on educational field trips without the meddling of Christians who maintain this willful ignorance.  The children are learning about the laws of this country, and in San Francisco, gay marriage is legal&#8211;that fact should not be kept hidden from children no matter whether you are acting from homophobia or merely &#8220;don&#8217;t rub my nose in it&#8221; &#8212; whatever you would like to self-label that attitude.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Bussey</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/10/15/what-is-educational-about-this/#comment-10826</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Bussey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:15:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=1230#comment-10826</guid>
		<description>Why am I arrogant because I have a belief that the Bible is correct?   What interpretation is there?  In the OT God destroyed an entire city because of homosexuality.  Why do you resort to name calling? I haven't called you any names.

I'm not homophobic.  I have no problem if someone wants to live how they want.  Just don't rub my face in it.  Let children be children and if they chose that lifestyle when they get older than that is their choice.  But the Homosexual agenda is to indoctrinate children and actually recruit them.

&lt;em&gt;Kevin Bussey's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ConfessionsOfARecoveringPharisee/~3/421382626/' rel="nofollow"&gt;What is educational about this?&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why am I arrogant because I have a belief that the Bible is correct?   What interpretation is there?  In the OT God destroyed an entire city because of homosexuality.  Why do you resort to name calling? I haven&#8217;t called you any names.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not homophobic.  I have no problem if someone wants to live how they want.  Just don&#8217;t rub my face in it.  Let children be children and if they chose that lifestyle when they get older than that is their choice.  But the Homosexual agenda is to indoctrinate children and actually recruit them.</p>
<p><em>Kevin Bussey&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ConfessionsOfARecoveringPharisee/~3/421382626/' rel="nofollow">What is educational about this?</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/10/15/what-is-educational-about-this/#comment-10825</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=1230#comment-10825</guid>
		<description>sorry about the two-part post, I made a typo in my first sentence.  
I meant to paraphrase Mel White' point that the idea that sexual identity might be an innate characteristic was not even discovered until the 1900s, further supporting the view that the Biblical authors had no opinion on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sorry about the two-part post, I made a typo in my first sentence.<br />
I meant to paraphrase Mel White&#8217; point that the idea that sexual identity might be an innate characteristic was not even discovered until the 1900s, further supporting the view that the Biblical authors had no opinion on it.</p>
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