Oct 09 2008
Should Christians divorce?
[Sunday Monitor]
“It is the most difficult decision I have had to make in my entire life,” said the Rev. Randy White, 49. “I take full responsibility for a failed marriage - 100 percent. I don’t blame Paula, and I don’t blame other parties.
But as the man of the house, I take full responsibility for that,” states a religion website which quoted the couple announcing divorce to their congregation, ending an 18-year journey of married life together. He praised his wife, calling her an exceptional woman, a great preacher and wife.
Paula and Randy White were co-pastors at a multi-billion church in Canada called Without Walls International Church. They founded this church together in 1991, and it had a capacity of 22,000 members, with 200 outreach ministries. Paula White is a Television Evangelist, life coach, and counsellor.
Reasons for their divorce are not so clear although The Tampa Tribune Magazine links the couple to extra marital affairs. Paula has been linked to Bishop Rick Hawkins of Family Praise Centre in San Antonio, Texas, while Randy has been linked to his ex-porn star female personal trainer.
The magazine also cites money disagreements as another reason for the breakup. This made Paula White buy an apartment in New York City, where she opened up a ministry and care centre in July.
Why is divorce on the increase even in Christian homes? Can divorce be a justified means of separation in such families when the vows taken include commitment phrases like “I will be with you in good and bad times, in sickness and in health, wealth and poverty until death do us part?” What happens to these vows when a divorce is being considered? Do they lose meaning? On what grounds does the Bible allow divorce?
Read more here.
[From me]
We live in a fallen world. Bad things happen in the lives of believers too. I know many fine, Godly people who have experienced divorce on Biblical grounds. But something is wrong when the divorce rate among believers is as high or even higher than those who aren’t believers. If believers just treat marriage like it is like “going steady” in high school and you can just break up and move on, then why would non-believers want to go to church?
What do you think?
38 responses so far
The word “Lord” means supreme in authority. And, at the end of a lengthy dissertation on the meaning of “confess” Jesus as Lord, I have to think that, if He’s not Lord OF all, He may not be Lord AT all … in someone’s life.
I’m probably more opinionated than you are, but I really REALLY don’t understand how Christian couples can divorce. It indicates such a lack of submission to Jesus.
Bob Cleveland’s last blog post..Go See It.
Of course divorce should be lower in churches. Sometimes a Christian may not be able to reconcile with his/her adulterous spouse. I wouldn’t get too hung up on the stats, though, because there are so many non-Christians who check the “Christian” box that the data is meaningless.
can I put another vote it to do away with our modern day status of “Church Superstars”!!!!
I tend to agree with Bob. If Christians didn’t claim to have any special corner on the “love market”, I wouldn’t expect them to fare any better or worse in marriage or in relationships in general. But if Christians claim to have a divine love that is imparted to them by God, then I would expect better relationships, including more successful marriages, to be evidence of the claim.
Every “christian” couple I know whose marriage resulted in divorce had a critical commonality — at least one of the couple placed themselves in the position of ‘Lord of their Life’ instead of placing God, through Christ, in that position.
Like all sin, it boils down to pride . . . it’s all about “me’.
A marriage involving only two is destined to fail . . . perhaps through divorce, perhaps through other methods. Without Him at the center, a marriage will be as God intended.
Darryl’s last blog post..Ten Things I Just Don’t Understand
I do not think Christians should divorce. I think the Bible is pretty clear that God “hates divorce” (Malachi 2:16). I do believe, however, there a a very few reasons that the Bible allows divorce. I can’t recall them of the top of my head, nor could I find them at this moment. However, I would argue that divorces are a bad reflection on the church.
Before my wife and I got married this past march, we did marriage councilling. It was through our Sunday School teachers and we used a biblically-based book. I have to say, neither my wife, nor me went into the marriage with the idea that we could quit later if we wanted to.
I think biblically-based marriages, like a lot of things (see your post about selling alcohol yesterday) have been subject to cultural manipulations. The case you have provided seems to be an example. If Christian marriages fail at the same rate as worldly marriages, how many people are going to want to have biblically-based marriages?
Michael’s last blog post..Do You Play Like You Practice?
I concur with those who have said Christians should never divorce. As with all rules, there might be exceptions, but I would place EXTREME (emphasis added) scrutiny on these so-called exceptions, and I have great doubt they truly have any application in any non-theoretical, real-life situations.
For example, in the case of abusive relationships and alcoholism, we may see the need to distance oneself physically from the abusive spouse in the interest of preserving one’s own life, but the viewpoint of Christ-like compassion and understanding is that the abusive spouse is not well, neither mentally, spiritually, nor in the case of alcoholism, physically–they need their spouse–who is fortunate enough to be well in mind and judgment–more than ever to be there for them through thick and thin, even if that means tasering them and putting them in rehab or jail by force, and waiting and praying for their recovery.
If Christopher Reeve’s wife can wait for and love him while he is paralyzed from the neck down in order to join him forever in the Kingdom of Heaven, someone can wait for and assist in someone getting their act together in virtually all, if not theoretically all, circumstances. Even if it takes 50 years of patient waiting and prayer, it is a lifelong commitment for better OR for worse.
Wow, you’re totally right there. All of us non-Christians who are married are barely managing to keep it together. What an arrogant asswipe.
Damian, No real need for name calling.
There are only two reasons divorce is acceptable in the Bible: unrepentant adultery and abandonment. Having worked in the domestic violence field, that particular area is very difficult for me to give counsel in. If a batterer (male or female) is willing to work on the power and control issues in their life then by all means, the spouse should be willing to wait while at the same time protecting themselves. HOWEVER, if a batterer refuses to work on their life issues, I would have a hard time telling a woman to stay in that marriage. Her life is at stake both in the marriage and then while leaving (75% of all domestic violence homicides happen after the spouse leaves the relationship.) And please don’t give me the court-system answer. In most states, you get a longer sentence for beating an animal than beating your spouse.
Fair call Angie,
Wow, you’re totally right there. All of us non-Christians who are married are barely managing to keep it together. Oh the arrogance! Oh the ignorance!
“…but the greatest of these is love”. Are they really Christains to begin with or just a “religious” couple that knows of God?
I concur with Angie upon further consideration–by the way, I only meant the court system should be a help in theory, not that it necessarily currently is all that helpful, because there are indeed problems with our legal system. I think Angie provided a dose of reality and moderation to my hard-core philosophical stance.
Another thing–
I think what Darryl meant, Damian, was that people who put their own needs and desires before what is right will find themselves on the wrong track, either sooner or later–this error affects those professing to be Christian just as it may affect those who do not, it is just a problem that someone who is following Christianity closely and correctly should be steering clear of, ideally. …I think Darryl was neither arrogant nor ignorant, necessarily, only that he was communicating a moral truth through a religious framework.
Ben, if Darryl meant that then he probably shouldn’t have used the words “destined to fail”. I know plenty of couples who have had nothing to do with god and who have lived and died together as happy and as fulfilled as anyone could hope.
“Arrogant” because that phrase implies that Darryl thinks only his way is the right way.
“Ignorant” because he clearly shows that he isn’t aware of the many, many millions of happy couples who don’t find it necessary to have a god to enjoy a fulfilling marriage.
Damian– I think we should agree to disagree at this point, because you have said your point and I have said mine.
I agree with you that people who think their religion is the only right way are indeed arrogant and often ignorant of the virtue of other paths that lead to good and moral choices. It is only that, in this particular case, I suspect that you may be reading too much into the way Darryl phrased it. Religious people in religious settings are used to speaking in religious frameworks or “paradigms” comfortably and being understood as not being prejudiced against people of other faiths or walks of life. I realize his words, taken literally, do not fully support my interpretation, but he should not be labeled so harshly for failing to preemptively defend himself from your negative assumptions about him.
Let’s give him the benefit of the doubt, eh? He’s an internet person, he might be an 11-year-old pretending to be a grown-up!
I suspect that the liberalised divorce laws here have saved many a spouse from being murdered- and I do mean that literally. There is a limit to most people’s patience, and why endure beatings and verbal abuse for an entire lifetime? If my mother had walked out on my father, perhaps we kids wouldn’t be left with a decades of trauma to deal with. We would have rejoiced had she divorced him, but in those days, it was extremely difficult, and women were heavily conditioned to believe that marriage was mainly their responsibility..
A neighbour of mine was abandoned by her Christian husband with no warning. She woke one day to find a note to the effect that as she snored in her sleep, he didn’t think he should have to put up with it. The idea of changing beds seemed never to have occurred to him:) Well, of course, that was an excuse to run off with another woman, wasn’t it? Leaving the wife to raise 2 teenage kids by herself. He still reads the gospels in his church every Sunday, though, much to my amusement. I wonder how he’ll cope if the minister wants him to read Jesus’s prohibition on divorce?
Well, part of the problem with Christians and especially those of us in ministry is what Andy Stanley said today at the conference.
“The church becomes the mistress for the minister.” We spend too much time ministering to others at the expense of our own families. As Andy said our families have only one biological Mom or Dad and our spouses have only one 1st marriage partner. We can always find another job.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Catalyst Conference Day 1 2nd Update
Wow, I get tied up for a day or so, never knowing a conclusion based upon personal observation resulted in such a firestorm . . .
First, I admit to being ignorant and overly arrogant. These are a couple of my many sins.
The criticism of the comment I made a few days ago focused on the phrase “destined to fail”, but failed to explore the qualifying statements “perhaps through divorce, perhaps through other methods. Without Him at the center, a marriage will never be as God intended.” My point is that without God’s involvement, a christian married couple will never have the full experience of marriage intended by God when He created it. For me, just staying together as a couple doesn’t mean the marriage is successful. My measure of success is not by worldly standards, but by standards pleasing to God.
Damian, please consider that the context of the OP was marriages in “Christian” homes, yet you incorrectly applied my observation and opinion to “non-christian” marriages, which was not my intention. I’m not sure why you did so, but I am quick to say that biblical obligations of christians and non-christians are quite different. Within their context, I am confident that many non-christians have fulfilling, happy, long-term marriages — in fact, I personally know many who do. By definition, “non-christians” would not have God at the center of their marriage, nor would they be expected to have a marriage as God intended, as understood by Christians.
Obviously, this is just my opinion.
By the way, I’m not an 11 year old pretending to be a grown-up . . . I’m a 39 year-old man married for 15 years, 4 months with two children and a dog. If you wish to learn more about me, feel free to visit my blog and ask any question.
Darryl
Darryl’s last blog post..Dental Flaws & Spiritual Floss . . .
Darryl, we unbelievers certainly can have great marriages without dragging any god into it. I have been married for many years and every day awake with a sense of happiness that my man will enjoy my home-cooked meals, and that I am safe and secure with his great business sense and ability to handle finances. I am happy that we have our beautiful cats, that we live by the sea and enjoy long walks together. Neither of us has ever needed to worry about the other’s fidelity. This is contentment, and it comes after many years, when the fires of youthful passion have died down somewhat, and something else takes its place. IN what way is our marriage different to what your god intended?
Francoise,
I am certainly glad that you and your husband have a fulfilling marriage. Again, the context of my remark was within the framework of Kevin’s original post regarding CHRISTIANS who divorce. In reviewing my earlier remarks, I don’t believe I was commenting about marriages involved those who do not claim a relationship with Christ; If I left that impression, please accept this as clarification.
As a believer in God who places my faith in Christ, I have personally experienced the manifestations of keeping God at the center of a marriage between Christians, as well as the results that occur when that is not the case. Jesus description of marriage in Matthew 19, as well as Pauls instructions in I Corinthians 7 provide a bibilical foundation for Christian marriage. I do not expect non-Christians to accept those instructions, since they do not accept the authority of the God who gave them.
I fully agree that God is not, nor should not be, involved in a marriage between two people who do not believe in Him. After all, if He is not part of their lives, why would He be part of their marriage?
Is marriage between Christians more fulfilling than marriage between non-Christians? Well, that’s not the question Kevin asked, nor is it the question I addressed in earlier comments. While I believe life itself is more fulfilling when we experience God’s grace and live obediently with the purpose of glorifying Him, I fully understand that not everyone else feels the same way. I’m not a ‘hellfire & brimstone’ apologetic evangelist who is driven to condemn or convince all who don’t claim a relationship with Jesus Christ.
So, once again, I’ll answer Kevin’s original question. This time I’ll make it simple, without any opinions or insights on how Christians can lessen the likelihood of failing to obey God’s bibilical commands.
No, Christians should not divorce.
Darryl’s last blog post..Dental Flaws & Spiritual Floss . . .
No Christian should divorce? Does that mean that they have to put up with intolerable abuse, infidelity, physical cruelty, etc? Til death does them part? What sort of god requires that level of misery? What does staying together under those circumstances prove? How does it benefit a believer to stay with a vile partner? What about the untold damage that a toxic marriage does to their defenceless children? I speak from bitter experience!
Okay, here’s my last stab . . .
Christians who follow the biblical model for marriage as intended by God (see previous comment) will not be involved in the situation you describe. That being said, Christians (being human) are certainly subject to sin and can engage in horrible actions within the bounds of marriage. Through his mercy, God has provided paths to restoration that involves repentence and forgiveness when that occurs, not only in the marital relationship, but between Christians in general.
What you describe is a long term pattern of unrepentent sin. While some may disagree, I don’t believe it possible for a true Christian to be involved in such a pattern over the long term. Like any loving parent, God disciplines His children and tolerates disobedience only for a time. While it is not for me to judge someones salvation, scripture tells us that Christians will be known by their fruit and by their love — neither of which is evident in the horrible situation you describe.
Scripture address marriages that may occur between the ‘unequally yoked’, which very well may apply to the situation you described. Again, I was addressing Kevin’s OP regarding Christian marriage. If two Christians are married, and they have God at the center of the marriage, the situation you describe will not occur.
Do sitations similar to what you describe occur between couples who claim Christianity? Of course it does; By some estimates, only 20% of people who claim to be Christian actually have a regenerate relationship with Christ. Just because someone claims His name doesn’t mean they are actually Christian.
Francoise, all I know of you comes from the comments I’ve occasionally read on Kevin’s blog during the past few years. From those comments, it appears that you are not a believer in Christ. While I would rejoice if that changed someday, it’s not for me to convince you by my cleverness or argument that I am correct; Jesus doesn’t need me to defend His truth. His ways do not always make sense when compared to the ways of the world, so I have no expectation that those who don’t follow Christ to accept them. I make no claim to being a knowledgeable theologian– just an average guy who loves Christ, and seeks to follow Him.
If I upset you by my opinion, please accept my apology.
I doubt anyone else is following this thread, so I’ll let this be my final comment . . .
Darryl’s last blog post..Dental Flaws & Spiritual Floss . . .
I think the problem lies in the way Christians have bought satan’s lie that we are all supposed to date a gazillion different people before we find our spouse - the one God has chosen for us. Christians marriages fail at the same rate as non-Christians because we do marriage the same way. Most of us date, many of us are misled because of the dating, and many (55% of us, according to the last stat I heard) wind up divorcing, perhaps because we are married to the wrong person in the first place.
We (Christians) are supposed to look differently, sound differently, act differently than the world. But most of the time we don’t. We push our teenagers, heck, our children, to pair up with a good Christian boy or girl…way before they are of marriagable age. So they pair up and break up and pair up and break up. In essence, they learn how to divorce.
God has plans for us, if we are to believe Scripture, and wouldn’t plans include not just where we go to college, what career we have, what town we live in, but who we are to marry? If that’s the case, then why date at all? Is not the One who breathed the stars into existence capable of bringing two people together without their help? But how will we know if we don’t date them? How do you know where to go to college? What career to pursue? What town to live in? Do you try ten different colleges before you decide which one God wants you to attend?
This is not to say that Christians who date won’t end up with the spouse God intends. But obviously we are doing something wrong if more than half of our marriages fail.
Sorry, this doesn’t answer the question “should Christians divorce,” but I say Christians shouldn’t date then maybe they wouldn’t divorce. Dating is not scriptural, so why do we do it?
Darryl
I don’t know if others are following, but just to let you know, I am (and apparently Jana R. is).
It seems to me (and you and Jana R. may agree at least in part), that we should expect Christians to act differently than non-Christians if Christians are endowed with God’s love, which is a divine love that is presumably superior to man’s love - we all understand this divine love to be more intense, it is more consistent, and it is enduring.
Then what do we make of our agreed observation that Christians don’t appear to have love that is superior to the love of non-Christians? One thing many Christians say, as you do in your comment above, is that those people aren’t really Christians, even if they claim to be. But if your measure of a true Christian is superior love (which, by the way, I agree is a legitimate measure, given your premise), that would leave a precious few who are “true Christians” - and many of those would not even claim to be Christian (they may be Jane for example). So you further have to narrow the field by including only those with superior love and who claim to be Christians. This latter stipulation is a tacit admission that even true Christians, by this definition, don’t have love which is superior to others who exhibit the same love but do not profess to be Christians.
One benefit for this discussion at least, for excluding those who do not love strongly or consistently enough, is that it will drastically reduce the embarrassingly high percentage of Christian divorce! It refutes the charge that ‘Christian marriages who “have God” are no better off than any marriage that doesn’t have God’. But even if your criteria for recognizing a true Christian solves the problem of divorce rate among Christians, it creates a much more fundamental problem: namely, claiming to be a Christian yourself.
To wit, do you love strongly and consistently enough so that you would be considered a Christian by this criterion? My guess is that you will humbly admit that you do not. Or even if you believe that you do now, will you continue to exhibit this strong, consistent love throughout your entire lifetime? If this love should ever falter, then one could use your criteria to say that you were never really a Christian in the first place.
Since you will disagree with a charge that you are not now a Christian, then you must also reject the criterion of exhibiting divine love. Once you reject this criterion, then the percentage of Christian divorce by your reckoning is a bit higher than the overall rate of divorce.
Your thoughts?
Woah… Okay, the problem here is truly one of definitions, if I may chime in. Follow me here:
Yes, lots of people who claim to be Christians are not true Christians, they are in name only but they are like wolves in sheep’s clothing, or else they are just too uninformed to understand the importance of scriptural and moral lessons. But we should not strip away their Christian label to increase Christian marriage statistics either, because that is confusing as heck! Let’s just start with the understanding that the labels we give people and the labels they give themselves are less important than what is in their hearts and minds–and that is difficult to track with statistics.
However, this does not mean that we should be putting Darryl on the spot by holding him to a standard of “superior love”, like AskAnAtheist is doing. Love is not measurable, nor is one sort of love superior to another… Love is love.
The Christian model of love, however, is not necessarily a feeling, or an emotion–although in a true and good marriage feelings and emotions are well-situated to flourish–love is a choice. As unromantic as it sounds, sometimes you have to choose to do something even when it does not feel like it makes perfect sense just then. It is a commitment to be giving and caring even if we do not feel like it all the time.
The only real basis to compare Christian love favorably to any other type of love is if love, under a different label, is based on a less-strong commitment, not just in time, but a daily commitment to put another’s needs first.
To make this generalization about non-Christian marriages would be terribly offensive and often incorrect. Tons of people have chimed in on this list to say that they have true and good marriages without God. That is great, and let me chime in that I do not think the love those marriages experience can or should be compared to Darryl. Love, as a choice, cannot be measured or compared, if it is present in your marriage, you will know. And the people who experience and understand the value of love outside of Christianity should be supportive of the positive message and moral teachings in support of love that Christianity represents, and should not be trying to tear Christianity down with faulty logic.
Sorry about a two-part post–but I did not address Jana’s question at all!
Jana–There may not be scriptural references to “dating,” but there are scriptural references to being “differently yoked,” and if you are doing all the work to make your marriage work while your partner is a selfish slacker, it won’t be as happy or productive a match as it could be. And, unless your parents are going to put you into an arranged marriage or something, it is your responsibility to pick who is a good match for you–who will try as hard if not harder than you for the rest of your lives to make your marriage work. It is one of the top 2 most important decisions of your life!
Dating and “breaking up” is not preparing to divorce, necessarily. People can date without going steady–you can go get dinner with a guy without making a commitment to see him again necessarily, or to be exclusive. As long as you aren’t intimately involved with all these guys, there is nothing wrong with dating a variety of people to try to find ones how are a good match for you. Even if you agree to go steady with a guy, that is not as strong of a commitment as an engagement to marry or marriage itself.
So why go steady, why not skip straight to marriage? Well, because people who have their lives messed up are often able to put a good foot forward and to be impressive for one or a few dates. But the longer you spend with a person, the more likely you are to see their true nature, what they are like when their guard is down a little, and this is more like how they are going to be in a marriage, and it’s often quite different than how people act on a first date (although it probably shouldn’t be all that different, if they are as polite for life as they are on the first date).
To put this into evolutionary-biological terms, people are selective about who they mate with because, since humans, say, compared to fish, have so few offspring, there is a strong need to take care of the kids we have, and that requires the support of two parents (no offense to one-parent households, it is just easier with four hands instead of two). Therefore, people need to be selective to make sure the person they choose is strong and healthy and moral and will be with them for the long haul!
Long story short, be choosy and don’t jump into marriage with a poser who will divorce you in ten years for a younger and ditzier version of yourself.
BTW sorry if this is off the topic of should Christians divorce!
Ben,
Then we agree: if one sort of love is not superior to another, then the divine love which many Christians claim that God has put within them is really just the same love that everyone, both believers and non-believers have - no more and no less. And as I explained earlier, the reason for holding Christians to a higher standard is their own claim of possessing a superior, divine love.
I’m not sure if you are now saying here that Christian love is different after all from the love we all feel and express. Are you?
Personally, I condone any philosophy that promotes and esteems love. However many Christians discredit this central message of Christianity by claiming to be the sole possessors of a superior divine love, which you and I agree does not exist.
I would be interested to know what fault you found in my logic. Would you clarify? Thanks!
Regarding the divorce stats for Christians: You’d think that if Christians actually have a better formula for marriage but that their numbers are boosted by people who think themselves Christians but don’t measure up by some Christian’s standards, that their stats should still be better than those who don’t consider themselves Christians. The true Christian’s perfect marriages should influence the normal marriages of those imposters and raise the average for that group combined.
Either the imposters in the “Christian” group have a much higher-than-average divorce rate to negate the effects of the wondrous Christian marriages or “Christian marriages” are really just an imaginary ideal. And, it would seem, an ideal that doesn’t actually help when you want to have a long-lasting marriage.
First, I want to clarify an AskAnAtheist question, then I have a general observation with the problem of comparing Christian morality with “everything else” at once without defining the latter.
“The only real basis to compare Christian love favorably to any other type of love is if love, under a different label, is based on a less-strong commitment, not just in time, but a daily commitment to put another’s needs first.” –quote from me, out of context
“I’m not sure if you are now saying here that Christian love is different after all from the love we all feel and express. Are you?”
It’s scary to put that quote out of the context of my message, because in the very next sentence I say how offensive it is. However, for those who are following and not taking offense, I was talking about the BASIS of love labeled as Christian, which is the moral teachings of scripture, versus the BASIS of “other” types of love. I guess this is really confusing in light of me saying there is only one type of love.
Before I reconcile this seeming contradiction, I would like to point out how easy it would be to mentally define love differently, and thus create a world in our heads where tons of different types of love exist. Young love, puppy love, love of pizza, etc. It is simpler and more productive, however, to think of puppy love as a different BASIS for love than the profound commitment outline in scripture. Love itself, as an abstract and mysterious idea we are struggling to deal with constructively on this list, is something I am claiming there is only one type of.
AskAnAtheist.org, I really don’t want to disagree with you when you take a beef when Christians say they are the sole source of Divine Love. That claim sounds dangerously close to Tom Cruise saying Scientologists are the only ones who can save the world. What value that claim has in Christian terms is too abstract and philosophical for anyone to defend relevantly in this thread. The value of “divine love”, in my opinion, is tantamount to the value of choosing Christianity as a religion, and that is a debate that should not be on the “should christians marry” thread, it should be on a new “should people be Christian?” thread, and I have no beef with people who want to choose a different path in life provided that they are loving and friendly in their hearts. *peace sign!*
Moving on, however, to a problem I am seeing with this whole thread, is that the “other” alternative to Christianity-based love is so undefined, that when we compare Christianity to everything else, people are making wildly general claims like Christianity is no better than anything else–and I do not think the statistics show that. As an initial matter, what about those religions where people slaughter goats and have orgies? As sure as I am that there are philosophies out that that some atheists may subscribe to that are very nice, I think everyone on this thread should agree that there is some straw-man ideologies out there we can think up compared to which Christianity is superior.
More importantly, though, Darryl had nothing against non-Christian marriages, and Damian’s statistical comparison of Christianity to some undefined other group is very unhelpful. Maybe there is a correlation since, and I am just wildly speculating here, maybe in general in the United States, the vast number of Christians are less educated and less wealthy than others? Isn’t there some Bible belt in which tons of people choose Christianity, and isn’t it in the south? My beef with Damian is that he is taking these statistics and attempting to infer from them something about the value of Christianity as a religion, when perhaps a more direct causal relationship could be between divorce and poverty, or divorce and lack of education.
This inference of Christianity’s value is especially problematic when we do not know the basis of the “non-Christian” statistical marriages–if they are based on the same moral concepts of fidelity and commitment as Christian marriages, then it does not seem to me that whether or not those two different statistical groups are Christian would be the most telling causal factor determining the length of the union.
I guess my main beef is that we are attempting to argue against Christianity without clearly labeling the alternative, as if absence of belief is better than belief. Perhaps the agnostic people with the good marriages should talk about what THEY believe, and then we might discover that we do not have as many differences between us as it may have seemed based on our religious labels.
Since I was mistaken and some are still following this thread, I’ll try to address a few issues some have brought up regarding my comments . . .
A3,
1. While God’s Love is one of His communicable attributes, we are not able to express it as He does. I don’t recall referring to “divine” or “superior” love in my remarks. That being said, I do know that His presence in my life allows me to love in a manner I am incapable of otherwise. His Love, Grace, and Mercy are all things I don’t deserve and cannot earn; these do not make me superior to anyone. The logic involved in ascertaining that God’s relationship with a person (or perhaps His mere existence?) based upon whether or not they are capable of displaying His love in a manner sufficient enough to prevent divorce is based on assumptions I never claimed. While His grace is transforming, it doesn’t prevent Christians from engaging in sinful acts — the difference is that when Christians sin, they face consequences from God.
2. My remarks about unregenerate people who claim to be Christian was in reference to Francoise’s example of life-long abusive marriages, not in the broader context of Christians who divorce in general. My claim was not that Christians are incapable of divoce; I personally know many who have done so fully outside of God’s will. I DID indicate that I firmly believe that God will not allow a true Christian to engage in a life time of abuse as described by Francoise. I’m sure some will disagree; it won’t be the first time.
Ben — I agree that there have been some extrapolations and inferred causal relationships between variables that may or may not exist. Also, thank you for pointing out that I wasn’t attacking, or even referenceing, marriages between non-Christians; in fact, I was being critical of Christians who choose to divorce which in most instances, is clearly outside of God’s plan for marriage between Christians. I don’t know that he has a plan for marriage between non-Christians.
Damian — I’m just satisfied with the fact that you are no longer comparing me to used toliet paper . . .
It’s obvious that we all have firm beliefs and I don’t expect anyone to be swayed by my off-the-cuff comments. That being said, I appreciate those who took the time to read and respond.
Darryl’s last blog post..Finding Joy in the Darkness . . .
Ben
Sorry if you felt I intentionally took your quote out of context. First, let me point out that your entire post appears immediately above my response for all to see, so it would be somewhat difficult to take anything you said in that post out of context with your post providing the context :)) Most importantly, notice that all I did was ask for clarification, and I tried to word my question to express my misunderstanding of your statement, and not to discredit what I had already decided your out-of-context statement said. If this didn’t come across the way I had hoped, I apologize.
At the risk of taking another comment out of context, let me ask what you would consider the basis for other types of love? The love felt and expressed by non-believers, and by believers in different religions?
To make the affirmation stronger, I think you and I agree completely here: that Christians have no place claiming that they possess a love par excellence which is superior to all other love, nor do they have any place claiming without any burden of proof that their beliefs are superior to others all others. However, I feel certain that other Christians on this blog will disagree strongly with us.
I don’t think a claim like that is legitimate either. However, based on the divorce stats that we are talking about here, I think it is fair to conclude that Christian marriages are no more successful than that of the general population (and in fact they are actually a bit less successful). And if we agree that love is the key component to a successful marriage (note that not all cultures accept this), then we can point to the divorce rate as an indication that Christian love is no better than non-Christian love.
I haven’t seen Darryl say explicitly that he is against non-Christian marriages either (and I don’t accuse him of that)… although he does say that “A marriage involving only two is destined to fail” which implies that marriages without God (I’ll venture he means Jesus) is doomed. So while I agree with Damian that this sentiments deserves criticism, that’s really not been the point of my discussion here, nor have I challenged Darryl on this point. I criticized Darryl and others about their view of the love par excellence that Christians claim to have, as he still maintains (see below).
There are in fact statistics which show that Christians in the U.S. are as a group less educated than Americans as a whole. I agree with you that the spread is probably even wider in the South, though I haven’t seen statistics to back that up. But we should be cautious about how we use statistics to determine cause and affect! Suggesting that the high divorce rate for Christians might be due to lower education is the same as suggesting that people choose Christianity due to lower education. I’m not prepared to cite low-education for the Christian divorce rate any more than I am willing to cite low-education for the percentage of people that choose Christianity.
I just reread Damian’s comments but I didn’t see where he attempted to discredit Christianity because of the statistics, or for any other reason. Maybe you noticed something that I didn’t. In any case, I think making the discussion about Darryl or about Damien derails us from the more interesting point that we are discussion.
We continue to agree on this point: neither of us is prepared to say that Christians possess any special quality that would make them fare better in marriage than the general population.
While I do believe that atheism is better than belief, I haven’t tried to argue that point here because I don’t feel it’s true in the context of marriage and divorce. I also agree with you that it would be enlightening (to everyone, but mostly to the Christians who post here) for atheists/agnostics (and I’ll add other non-Christians) to say what makes their marriages succeed. Francoise has already offered her insight (and got no response, and no apparent interest) but I’ll offer mine here anyway:
To begin with, I dated a lot before meeting my wife, so when I met my wife, I knew she was the “right” (compatible on all important levels) woman for me, probably because I had the context of knowing other women. My wife and are brutally honest with each other about our pleasures and displeasures, yet we are always kind, respectful, and considerate to each other, even when we disagree. And we completely trust each other in every way. We both put our relationship above other more trivial things in life like money, jobs, religion, society, etc.
Darryl,
I don’t think you said those words either. But if we are both honest, then we will agree that “God’s Love” is understood as a superior and divine love.
If we continue in our honesty, then we will also agree that someone who possesses divine love (which is a love superior to mere human love), regardless of his competence for demonstrating love, is superior with respect to love to someone with the the same competence for demonstrating love, but does not possess divine love. And it is precisely this attribute, love, that we agree is a key component in a successful marriage.
This is a proposal I made, not one that I accuse you of making. I propose that if love is a key component in marriage (as we seem to agree that it is), then someone with superior love has a better chance at a successful marriage than someone without superior love. Then I suggest that the statics showing that Christians do not have better success at marriage should cause us to question the claim that they possess divine love.
This is more to my point: my point here is the lack of evidence for the transformation that you claim.
I think you may have me confused with a different poster?
A3,
we already addressed the “Divine Love” issue (without dishonesty, I might add).
“If we continue in our honesty, then we will also agree that someone who possesses divine love … is superior…”
To cling to the idea that both Darryl and I will change our stated position if only we were honest is for you to persist in a delusion which is contrary to the information already shared in this discourse and counterproductive to any understanding being reached (although I am steadily losing hope of that happening in this case).
“Then I suggest that the statics showing that Christians do not have better success at marriage should cause us to question the claim that they possess divine love.”
You are clearly drawing a Damian-style inference here, and the problems with doing so have already been addressed and either breezed over or ignored by you (it is striking that you are are reiterating, without elaboration or clarification, a point that has already been addressed and called into serious question–Darryl was earlier doubting anyone was still following everything that was said on this list and your most recent post strongly supports, in my mind, that possibility).
“you have not shown evidence for the claim that ‘his grace is transforming’”
A few problems here: 1) the topic is “should christians divorce,” so why should Christians have to defend the choice to be Christian in the context of this list–haven’t you, Damian and Francoise persuaded the Christians on this list to go far enough off-topic already? Again, I have already brought up this point and it has been ignored. 2) What sort of evidence are you looking for, anyway? Darryl has chosen to follow Jesus Christ, and he is happy with his decision. So far, that is the most evidence in favor of adopting a religious and moral belief system, or even a lifestyle, that has been posted on this list. If you want to one-up him by describing the joy of following whatever it is that you stand for, by all means share with us, but you would first have to describe what that is, and skeptically demanding “give me evidence” whenever anyone else is generous enough to open up and to share with you his personal testimony of Jesus Christ does not suffice as a belief system nor a way of life. Atheism, or negation, does not explain nor justify the choices you affirmatively make in life. The choices you make in life implicity endorse a lifestyle of some sort, and to question Darryl’s, despite the fact that of the two his is the more clearly-defined, more widely-endorsed, and more clearly in line with values that the Christians of this list strongly uphold and believe in to me seems wildly hypocritical.
What is your alternative, A3, to having a happy marriage? And in what ways is it superior to marriages as intended by God, outlined in Matthew 19, as well as Paul’s instructions in I Corinthians 7?
Well, I can see we’ve lost sight of the forest for the trees, and the thread has become a contest of “quote-throwing.”
As I stated a few posts ago, I only paused at this post to state an opinion, with what I still believe is a sound biblical explanation. My stance remains the same. Christian couples should not divorce.
Somehow, my comments have been de-contextualized and extrapolated to the point to where I am apparently “agreeing” to positions I don’t believe in.
A3, if this is a contest, I concede. You win. I’ve tried to explain my position, yet it doesn’t meet your standards of logic.
Of course, the whole concept of Christianity defies worldly logic, so at least I am consistenly illogical
I hope the week treats everyone well . . .
Darryl’s last blog post..Finding Joy in the Darkness . . .
OOPS my bad! (sorry again about the two-part post but a correction is direly needed).
apparently there were TWO posts up there! I officially retract all my complaints about being ignored.
My sincere apologies, A3, I feel silly! On the other hand though, it was fun to write that post–I like taking umbrage. 
Regarding the first post that I missed, I personally am a Christian, and it’s tricky to say that the Christians on this list would not agree with us whether or not their way is the only way or the best way.
Even though I am a Christian, it does not mean I oppose gay marriage, or that I am pro-life, or any of the other beliefs people typically associate with Christianity in the United States. Jesus never said we should overturn Roe v. Wade. That being said, I think we should separate the value of Christianity as a religion, independent from people’s subjective distortions of it, from the closed-mindedness of some Christians.
Thank you A3 for sharing your views on marriage, but the values and morals you describe seem perfectly compatible with Christianity. You ask what is the basis of non-Christian types of love… it would be hard to generalize too much, but based solely on your description of your marriage I see very little difference between your basis of fidelity and commitment than a Christian’s, and like I said earlier, love is love.
The funny thing is, I could take your description of marriage and apply it to my life WORD FOR WORD except for a one-word difference. For me, I would not categorize religion as a trivial thing, because for me, religion is the basis of all the rest. So, for me, I would say that religion is the ONLY thing I place above my wife, but we are okay with that because that is our way of saying we will put the other’s needs first, especially before those trivial things like earthly desires and stuff.
Sorry again for not noticing your first post… we can have a good laugh about it now, though, right?
*peace sign*
Ben,
Thanks for the clarification - I was surprised by your first post because I had expected that you and I shared a common view for the most part on the issues we have been discussing here. And no apology needed - it was just an honest mistake.
Are you retracting the entire previous post or just the part about being ignored? Let me know if not and I’ll be happy to respond to whichever part(s) still stands.
For the record, I didn’t get the impression that you were in lock-step with the fundamentalist view of morality. That’s why i said in my earlier comment to you that “I think you and I agree completely here…However, I feel certain that other Christians on this blog will disagree strongly with us.”
Heck yea! Don’t give it another thought!
I think the previous post still works for the most part, it just needs to be amended in the obvious spots.
I just wanted to drop a quick comment that I’ve been watching this entire thread. My contribution to the discussion is that while every has articulated their views, my only exhortation to all parties involved is that unless you have walked in those shoes, that is 1)Being a Christian and 2) been through a Biblical Divorce, none of you can truly empathize and should watch out for the dogma from both sides of this subject.
Very true Rob. Good observation. Although I struggle to see what would be different about being a Christian who divorces vs anyone else (other than perhaps the additional prejudice you’d have to endure). Have you been been through that yourself? Would you care to describe the experience?