Jul 22 2008
Can you be a “Christian” and not believe in the deity of Jesus?
[Ken Silva & Alpha and Omega Ministries]
Ken Silva asked:
Can you be a Christian and deny the Deity of the Savior you profess to believe in? Yep. And further you can even be inducted into the Southern Gospel Music Hall of Fame as was Joel Hemphill in 2007.
Read the story here.
Phillips, Craig and Dean’s songs have been standards for years in Contemporary Christian Music. Their successful career in Contemporary Christian Music and popularity among evangelicals is impressive; even more so when it is realized that the members of Phillips, Craig and Dean (PCD) are Oneness Pentecostals who deny essential Christian doctrines, including the doctrines of the Trinity and of justification by faith alone!
Read more here.
[From me]
First, this isn’t to cast stones at Mr. Hemphill or PCD. I disagree with Mr. Hemphill and PCD. But it is a story that is in the news and worthy of discussion. Where do they get this teaching? Groups like the Way International and of course the “Gnostics” of the 1st century believed this.
Do you think someone can be a follower of Jesus without believing in His deity?
What do you think?
18 responses so far
My first reaction is to ask whether the disciples of the NT knew that Jesus was God in the flesh. Like .. they didn’t have the NT to tell them that.
If we depend on the perfection of our beliefs t o get us into heaven, then none of us are going.
Having said that, I have no idea. The Bible is clear to me, but I confess that’s only because of God’s revealing of that to me. Whether He tells everyone, I don’t know.
Bob Cleveland’s last blog post..Miracles, Signs & Wonders. Who Needs’em?.
Read through the one on Hemphill and waded through i.e. skimmed a good part of it, the one on PCD. All I can say is “Wow!” You don’t even need a can opener for this batch of worms. I have problems accepting OP beliefs-always have I have even more with Mr. H’s “God told me” spiel. My gut reaction is no they can’t be but then my “twin” kicks in and says, “Judge? Who you?” So I will say, “I’m for sure maybe they can’t be.”
Bill(cycleguy)’s last blog post..Empty Nothings
Whether one is a follower of Jesus is subjective - certainly Evangelicals believe that they are followers of Jesus as much as Catholics and Mormons (for example) do. The fact that many Evangelicals don’t consider Catholics or Mormons to be followers is beside the point since there is no standard on which to base the judgment (the Bible is often cited as the standard, but there no standard interpretation of the Bible). This is also true, as Kevin’s question suggests, of early Christian sects who raised the same question and were also not able to answer it. The Athenasians considered the Arians to be heretics and vice versa. The Marcionites considered the Ebionites to be heretics and vice versa. The list goes on. There are as many christologies as there are Christian sects - some of which differ only slightly while others are polar opposites.
If I ask whether someone is a true Christian, I might really be asking whether someone is a Christian by the standard that I accept as authoritative. As long as I clarify my question by stating that I am using a particular standard, and that I’m not requiring others to accept my standard in order to discuss the question, then I can ask the question and have productive discussions about how my particular standard applies to any group who calls itself Christian.
On the other hand, if I ask whether someone is a true Christian, I might be searching for the least common denominators among all groups that consider themselves to be Christian. With this clarification, I might be able to approach the answer or at least have a productive discussion.
Finally, I might really be asking about which authoritative standard should be used for judging who is a follower of Jesus and who is not. In this case, I am really asking what is the proper interpretation of the Bible. Here is where I think Fundamentalist Christians find themselves a bit hobbled: while other groups are free to consider the interpretations of others (including Fundamentalist interpretations) and then decide whether the other point of view is reasonable (i.e., a bona fide discussion that considers the merits of each interpretation), Fundamentalists answer the question with a premise: that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. For this reason, they effectively withdraw themselves from discussions with non-Fundamentalists about interpretations of the Bible. Often enough, they even limit themselves from discussion with other Fundamentalists who agree that the Bible is the Word of God but disagree on what the Word of God says. As a result, Fundamentalists may well ask the question about who can be considered a follower of Jesus, but they withdraw themselves from discussions that explore an answer.
Without the ability for true discussion, all that’s left is to open Bill’s (cycleguy’s) can of worms :))
This discussion and a book I’m reading have given me a great idea for a post tomorrow about the marks of a believer.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Can you be a “Christian” and not believe in the deity of Jesus?
Joel Hemphill, sadly enough, has seemed to go off the “theological deep end”…
PCD…that’s another story. I know Randy Phillip’s sister and brother-in-law (the Scarboroughs) pretty well.
Phil Hoover’s last blog post..These are hysterical….
Bill the cycle guy is right…the “NT” believers didn’t have the NT - but, they had God Himself in their midst!
In Mt. 16:15, “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
So, it may be as simple as this - a true believer knows God when He sees Him! I can’t and won’t be one to judge PCD or Hemphill, but I do read in the word that we’ll know one another by our fruit, and our love for one another…I’ve met many “christians” whose behavior was worse than many of the “worldlies” and many in the world going their own way whose behavior was better than the churgoers…I think the word is clear as well, when Jesus states, “I am the way, the truth, and the life” and “The only way to the Father is through the Son”…
Larry,
Thanks for chiming in. I don’t for a minute doubt any of these men’s salvation. I just think their teaching is wrong. Very wrong and it can lead people away from God. The Way International tried to get me when I was in high school and thank God my dad knew their theology and prevented their tactics on me.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Can you be a “Christian” and not believe in the deity of Jesus?
Correction…not Bill, but Bob, is right about the NT believers…
Well… salvation is by faith alone, through grace alone, in Jesus Christ alone. Notice that it is Jesus CHRIST. Jesus is His marvelous name. CHRIST is who he is. The Messiah… the infinite God-man. Now you all tell me. Who is this Jesus?
Furthermore, He really is the Lord Jesus Christ!
Halllelujah… He reigns!!
I personally do not see how you can be saved and not believe in His deity. Denying His deity is to deny who He really is.
Remember, Thomas in the NT said after touching Jesus nail-scarred hands and wounds… “My Lord and my God.” I believe that really realized He was God. They may not have fully comprehended it, but nonetheless, they truly believed it… by faith.
That’s why my Jesus is not the Jesus of the mormons, jehovah witnesses, the way international folks, and yes… the oneness pentecostals.
I do not believe one can be a Christian and deny the deity of Christ. That is denying that Christ is who He said He was. And I certainly don’t think it’s casting stone. The Truth of the gospel is imperative.
Debbie Kaufman’s last blog post..GodTube.com - I Can Only Imagine - John Tesh ALIVE music & dance
Eeek. There’s a lot of semantic issues involved here, but it’s hard to dissect the theological teachings of these men WITHOUT “threatening” their salvation. I don’t know how on earth to do that without appearing - or even BEING - judgmental.
I don’t UNDERSTAND the Trinity. I find it a little tough to demand that someone believe what I believe before I will accept their salvation. Do I personally believe they are incorrect? Yes, I do, but does that belief in itself make them - or the people in their churches - into heretics while preserving my salvation?
It’s a similar situation to creationism. Does a person HAVE to believe that God created the earth in six literal 24 hour days before he can spend eternity in Heaven instead of Hell? Likewise, here, does a person have to explicit believe the doctrine of the Trinity in order to escape damnation? What difference is there in claiming to believe something that I can’t explain and actually believing something that someone else purports to be heresy?
Is salvation personal, or is it subject to various litmus tests after the fact? What about the person who fully trusts in Christ as a teenager at a Baptist church and then becomes entangled in Oneness Pentecostalism ten years later and becomes a Bishop in that church? Are they saved or damned? Does where a person attends church or even THE MESSAGE THAT THEY PREACH determine their personal salvation? Eeeek.
I agree - it’s difficult, if not impossible, to have a salvic relationship with a Christ who is actually God if you do not believe Him to be God. It’s also difficult to determine if that’s what these guys are saying or not. I’m not saying that this teaching is right - I believe it to be terribly wrong if it is indeed what you guys here and the other watchdogs are saying.
I suppose my caution is that I know some Baptist preachers who say some REALLY stupid and WRONG things. Whether or not they are heretical largely depends on the mentality of the person who is critiquing their statements.
Good post, good questions. It’s raised my awareness of modalism and made me think. I just don’t know the answers
Bernard: Sorry brother. But there is no semantical error when you say that Jesus is not God or that he is not fully God. It is blatant error.
Again, who is your Jesus? What did Jesus mean when He emphatically said… “When you have seen me, you have seen the Father,” John 14:9? Was Jesus hallucinating? Was He speaking metaphorically here? Was He trying to make Himself someone He really wasn’t?
It doesn’t take a ThD in NT theology/history to understand that orthodox Christians believe absolutely in the full deity of Jesus Christ.
That is the original question in the post that Kevin titled…”Can you be a Christian and not believe in the deity of Jesus?”
NO. Judgemental? You bet it is. Not on my authority, but the authoritative Word of God.
Kevin,
Just as a matter of accuracy, Oneness Pentecostals do not deny the deity of Jesus. They do, however, deny the Trinity as defined by orthodox Christianity. Their understanding of the trinity is very similar, in fact almost identical, to the modalists, who believed that all three were God, but were not separate persons. Instead, Oneness Pentecostals teach that Jesus is one of the “modes” of God, as is the Father and the Spirit, but that these are not three distinct persons, but merely three manifestations of the same God at different times during redemptive history.
That said, is it possible to genuinely follow Christ and hold this position? One the one hand, yes. I completed my doctorate alongside a gentleman who came from this tradition and still confessed their understanding of the Godhead. I believe he was a Christ-follower, albeit a very confused one.
On the other hand, does this mean that the trinity is not a neccesary “unifying doctrine?” Absolutely not! I won’t take up any more of your space to defend this position, but suffice it to say for now that if there is no trinity as we understand the Scriptures to teach, there can be no Gospel. The validity of the Gospel is, I believe, predicated on the truth of one God eternally existent in three distinct persons. As such, the validity of the mission task is also in jeapordy without this doctrine. So would I say my doctoral colleague is lost? Not neccesarily. Would I assume all is well with him and therefore cooperate with him in evangelism, church planting, and missions? No, I would not.
I say all of that to say this: The trinity is of such importance that I, like you, am greatly disturbed that a music group would be awarded accolades for “Gospel music” who denies the trinity. Doctrinal latitude of this sort is dangerous to the church.
Joel’s last blog post..Shocking News from Pew Research
Thanks Joel for the clarification.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Public Service–Starbucks closure list
I’ve always been mystified how biblical literalists can understand the three Persons of the Trinity to be one and the same God in view of verses like 1Th 1:10 and Gal 1:1 where God (presumably the Father) raised Jesus from the dead (is God dead?). It even seems evident in the semantics where God is called “the Father” while Jesus is called the “Son”. The authors of Christian scripture seemed to believe that God had a Son which was begotten (past tense - at some moment in time) and therefore not the same Person as the Father. Can someone share some understanding of how these verses (and others) do not deny the notion of Trinity which was introduced by later writers?
JD says… “Bernard: Sorry brother. But there is no semantical error when you say that Jesus is not God or that he is not fully God. It is blatant error. ”
I didn’t say that.
I said this… “Eeek. There’s a lot of semantic issues involved here…”
One who clearly denies that Jesus is God clearly has a problem. You and I clearly agree here
I mention the semantics simply because of this - my personal understanding of modalism and the basics of Oneness Pentecostalism is that they maintain that Jesus is one of the three manifestations of God. They baptize in the name of “Jesus”, only, not in the Father or the Holy Ghost, but I’m not personally prepared to say that they do not believe that Jesus is God. That said, I was shocked to read Joel Hemphill’s statement. However, without context, and simply in light of responding to a blog post, I don’t know anywhere near enough to know whether or not Mr. Hemphill is a true believer in Christ. I’m convinced that a lot of people dabble in theological writing who would be better off doing something else, but I’m not in a position to judge their salvation.
Please be careful with the use of the words “you say”. I believe you are intending to say “when someone says”, but the way your statement is worded really seems to point a finger at me as though I, Bernard Shuford, said that Jesus is not God. I just want to be clear - I did NOT say that. I believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, I believe that He IS God, and I believe that He was fully man and God simultaneously.
I also think we’re full of it if we claim to be able to explain that, so I think we’re full of it if we say that someone must fully understand and ascribe to the doctrine of the Trinity before they can be saved.
Thanks for responding - I just wanted to make sure that neither you or anyone else might misunderstand what I actually said.
Bernard Shuford’s last blog post..I just don’t know…
Bernard:
I stand corrected. My humble apologies for mis-representing you.
JD - Thank you; I wasn’t offended or upset, just wanted to be clear about what I was saying
Bernard Shuford’s last blog post..I just don’t know…