I didn’t say that. I said this… “Eeek. There’s a lot of semantic issues involved here…”

One who clearly denies that Jesus is God clearly has a problem. You and I clearly agree here

I mention the semantics simply because of this - my personal understanding of modalism and the basics of Oneness Pentecostalism is that they maintain that Jesus is one of the three manifestations of God. They baptize in the name of “Jesus”, only, not in the Father or the Holy Ghost, but I’m not personally prepared to say that they do not believe that Jesus is God. That said, I was shocked to read Joel Hemphill’s statement. However, without context, and simply in light of responding to a blog post, I don’t know anywhere near enough to know whether or not Mr. Hemphill is a true believer in Christ. I’m convinced that a lot of people dabble in theological writing who would be better off doing something else, but I’m not in a position to judge their salvation.

Please be careful with the use of the words “you say”. I believe you are intending to say “when someone says”, but the way your statement is worded really seems to point a finger at me as though I, Bernard Shuford, said that Jesus is not God. I just want to be clear - I did NOT say that. I believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, I believe that He IS God, and I believe that He was fully man and God simultaneously.

I also think we’re full of it if we claim to be able to explain that, so I think we’re full of it if we say that someone must fully understand and ascribe to the doctrine of the Trinity before they can be saved.

Thanks for responding - I just wanted to make sure that neither you or anyone else might misunderstand what I actually said.

Bernard Shuford’s last blog post..I just don’t know…

Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Public Service–Starbucks closure list

Just as a matter of accuracy, Oneness Pentecostals do not deny the deity of Jesus. They do, however, deny the Trinity as defined by orthodox Christianity. Their understanding of the trinity is very similar, in fact almost identical, to the modalists, who believed that all three were God, but were not separate persons. Instead, Oneness Pentecostals teach that Jesus is one of the “modes” of God, as is the Father and the Spirit, but that these are not three distinct persons, but merely three manifestations of the same God at different times during redemptive history.

That said, is it possible to genuinely follow Christ and hold this position? One the one hand, yes. I completed my doctorate alongside a gentleman who came from this tradition and still confessed their understanding of the Godhead. I believe he was a Christ-follower, albeit a very confused one.

On the other hand, does this mean that the trinity is not a neccesary “unifying doctrine?” Absolutely not! I won’t take up any more of your space to defend this position, but suffice it to say for now that if there is no trinity as we understand the Scriptures to teach, there can be no Gospel. The validity of the Gospel is, I believe, predicated on the truth of one God eternally existent in three distinct persons. As such, the validity of the mission task is also in jeapordy without this doctrine. So would I say my doctoral colleague is lost? Not neccesarily. Would I assume all is well with him and therefore cooperate with him in evangelism, church planting, and missions? No, I would not.

I say all of that to say this: The trinity is of such importance that I, like you, am greatly disturbed that a music group would be awarded accolades for “Gospel music” who denies the trinity. Doctrinal latitude of this sort is dangerous to the church.

Joel’s last blog post..Shocking News from Pew Research

Again, who is your Jesus? What did Jesus mean when He emphatically said… “When you have seen me, you have seen the Father,” John 14:9? Was Jesus hallucinating? Was He speaking metaphorically here? Was He trying to make Himself someone He really wasn’t?

It doesn’t take a ThD in NT theology/history to understand that orthodox Christians believe absolutely in the full deity of Jesus Christ.

That is the original question in the post that Kevin titled…”Can you be a Christian and not believe in the deity of Jesus?”

NO. Judgemental? You bet it is. Not on my authority, but the authoritative Word of God.

I don’t UNDERSTAND the Trinity. I find it a little tough to demand that someone believe what I believe before I will accept their salvation. Do I personally believe they are incorrect? Yes, I do, but does that belief in itself make them - or the people in their churches - into heretics while preserving my salvation?

It’s a similar situation to creationism. Does a person HAVE to believe that God created the earth in six literal 24 hour days before he can spend eternity in Heaven instead of Hell? Likewise, here, does a person have to explicit believe the doctrine of the Trinity in order to escape damnation? What difference is there in claiming to believe something that I can’t explain and actually believing something that someone else purports to be heresy?

Is salvation personal, or is it subject to various litmus tests after the fact? What about the person who fully trusts in Christ as a teenager at a Baptist church and then becomes entangled in Oneness Pentecostalism ten years later and becomes a Bishop in that church? Are they saved or damned? Does where a person attends church or even THE MESSAGE THAT THEY PREACH determine their personal salvation? Eeeek.

I agree - it’s difficult, if not impossible, to have a salvic relationship with a Christ who is actually God if you do not believe Him to be God. It’s also difficult to determine if that’s what these guys are saying or not. I’m not saying that this teaching is right - I believe it to be terribly wrong if it is indeed what you guys here and the other watchdogs are saying.

I suppose my caution is that I know some Baptist preachers who say some REALLY stupid and WRONG things. Whether or not they are heretical largely depends on the mentality of the person who is critiquing their statements.

Good post, good questions. It’s raised my awareness of modalism and made me think. I just don’t know the answers

Debbie Kaufman’s last blog post..GodTube.com - I Can Only Imagine - John Tesh ALIVE music & dance

Furthermore, He really is the Lord Jesus Christ!

Halllelujah… He reigns!!

I personally do not see how you can be saved and not believe in His deity. Denying His deity is to deny who He really is.

Remember, Thomas in the NT said after touching Jesus nail-scarred hands and wounds… “My Lord and my God.” I believe that really realized He was God. They may not have fully comprehended it, but nonetheless, they truly believed it… by faith.

That’s why my Jesus is not the Jesus of the mormons, jehovah witnesses, the way international folks, and yes… the oneness pentecostals.