How can you be a Christian if you believe Lucifer was Jesus brother?
Our friend Bill the Mormon (from Gatlinburg, TN) is an expert at the cut and paste technique on this blog. One of the Mormon beliefs that makes absolutely no sense to me is that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers. Yes, you read that right–Mormons believe that Jesus was the brother of Satan. Before you think I made this up read this from their own official website:
Jess L. Christensen, Institute of Religion director at Utah State University, Logan, Utah. On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers. Jesus Christ was with the Father from the beginning. Lucifer, too, was an angel “who was in authority in the presence of God,” a “son of the morning.” (See Isa. 14:12; D&C 76:25–27.) Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)
How could two such great spirits become so totally opposite? The answer lies in the principle of agency, which has existed from all eternity. (See D&C 93:30–31.) Of Lucifer, the scripture says that because of rebellion “he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies.” (Moses 4:4.) Note that he was not created evil, but became Satan by his own choice.
When our Father in Heaven presented his plan of salvation, Jesus sustained the plan and his part in it, giving the glory to God, to whom it properly belonged. Lucifer, on the other hand, sought power, honor, and glory only for himself. (See Isa. 14:13–14; Moses 4:1–2.) When his modification of the Father’s plan was rejected, he rebelled against God and was subsequently cast out of heaven with those who had sided with him. (See Rev. 12:7–9; D&C 29:36–37.)
That brothers would make dramatically different choices is not unusual. It has happened time and again, as the scriptures attest: Cain chose to serve Satan; Abel chose to serve God. (See Moses 5:16–18.) Esau “despised his birthright”; Jacob wanted to honor it. (Gen. 25:29–34.) Joseph’s brothers sought to kill him; he sought to preserve them. (Gen. 37:12–24; Gen. 45:3–11.)
It is ironic that the agency with which Lucifer rebelled is the very gift he tried to take from man. His proposal was that all be forced back into God’s presence. (See Moses 4:1, 3.) But the principle of agency is fundamental to the existence and progression of intelligent beings: as we make wise choices, we grow in light and truth. On the other hand, wrong choices—such as the one Satan made—stop progress and can even deny us blessings that we already have. (See D&C 93:30–36.)
In order for us to progress, therefore, we must have the opportunity to choose good or evil. Interestingly, Satan and his angels—those who opposed agency—have become that opposition. As the prophet Lehi taught, “Men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.” (2 Ne. 2:27.)
Although the Father has allowed Satan and his angels to tempt mankind, he has given each of us the ability to rise above temptation. (See 1 Cor. 10:13.) He has also given us the great gift of the Atonement.
When the Lord placed enmity between Eve’s children and the devil, Satan was told that he would bruise the heel of Eve’s seed, but her seed would bruise his head. (See Moses 4:21.) President Joseph Fielding Smith explained that “the ‘God of peace,’ who according to the scriptures is to bruise Satan, is Jesus Christ.” (Answers to Gospel Questions, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957, 1:3.) Satan would bruise the Savior’s heel by leading men to crucify Him. But through his death and resurrection, Christ overcame death for all of us; and through his atonement, he offers each of us a way to escape the eternal ramifications of sin. Thus, Satan’s machinations have been frustrated and eventually he will be judged, bound, and cast into hell forever. (See Rev. 20:1–10; D&C 29:26–29.)
In Hebrew, the word bruise means “to crush or grind.” Therefore, the very heel that was bruised will crush Satan and will help us overcome the world and return to our Father. As we use our agency to choose good over evil, the atonement of Christ prepares the way for us to return to our Father in Heaven.
We can only imagine the sorrow of our Heavenly Father as he watched a loved son incite and lead a rebellion and lose his opportunity for exaltation. But we can also imagine the Father’s love and rejoicing as he welcomed back the beloved son who had valiantly and perfectly fought the battles of life and brought about the great Atonement through his suffering and death.
Huh? How can a group claim to be Christians when they teach such heresy? No where in the Bible does it even hint that Satan was a deity. The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is God and was around from the beginning. It also never mentions that Lucifer was Jesus brother. The Bible says Lucifer was an angel that rebelled but that is a far cry from being the son of God! Do realize how preposterous that is?
Now the Mormons will try to tell you that Doctrine and Covenants, The Pearl of Great Price and the Book of Mormon are all considered “Scripture” according to the Latter Day Saints. In fact, they believe those books are more important than the Bible. But those books were written less than 200 years ago. The Bible is living and active. Jesus Himself was the Word and dwelt among us according to the book of John.
Look, people can believe what ever they want. That is the right of every American. But why do the Mormons insist on being called Christians when they don’t teach the basic doctrines of Christianity? Just admit that you are not Christians. Just be happy with who you are–Mormons. Don’t try to convince people that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus because it is not. It is a book written by a delusional man named Joseph Smith. It was not inspired by the Holy Spirit like the real Bible. So how cant you be a Christian faith if you teach that Lucifer was the brother of Jesus?
I agree 100% with you K but I can see the cutting and pasting coming. This was one of my contentions in a previous post response to the “other Bill” (not tp be confused with this Bill (cycleguy). This is heresy pure and simple. Then again maybe it isn’t so simple since you gotta have a pretty wild imagination to believe any of this junk.
Bill(cycleguy)’s last blog post..Disappointment and Purpose
I agree with Bill…Bill the Cycleguy…that is.
Kevin, get ready for the cutting and pasting to begin. Just once, with Bill the mormon and his mormon friends, I wish they could have a discussion, without the cutting and pasting of documents from the BOM or other such documents. They can’t and won’t do it. Also, at no point, do they answer questions–it’s always misdirection, mischaracterization, or simply outright lies being told. When they are called at it, then they simply move on to another misdirection.
Now, I have no doubt that we’ll see plenty of pasting today. I’m sure, at some point, Bill the mormon from Gatlinburg, will pull out some obscure Internet site about some SBC pastor or Baptist pastors in general. Of course, that post will have nothing to do with the post here, nor address any of the questions you have raised.
Folks, being a Christian is about following Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. Period. It’s not about Jesus and the book of mormon. It’s not about Jesus and anything else. It’s about Jesus. If we can make Him the source of our conversation, we can have a good healthy discussion. Otherwise, the cut and paste diversions just don’t cut it any more (yes, pun intended).
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..The Eyes Have It; No, The Feet Have It!
Kevin,
Do you post the locations of all your bloggers…or…are you just hoping that by posting mine that someone will come beat me up or worse?
Now moving on…
If you Biblical experts really knew your Bible, you would be teaching to your congregations what the following scripture (FROM THE BIBLE) means:..
Isa. 14: 12
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Here are a few thoughts I have.
I kind of think that if a person didn’t believe in the immaculate conception of Mary, that wouldn’t invalidate faith their faith in Jesus.
I’ve always thought that a person doesn’t have to be able to explain the trinity to be a christian.
I disagree with my catholic friends about needing the sacraments to make it to heaven, but I’m really sure that I’ll see them there.
Question: Seriously how big a deal is right thinking? If right thinking is what matters where do grace and saving faith come in?
Kevin,
My honest evaluation of this is:
The Mormon church realizes that it is following a hoax, but they have so much invested in it (resources, manpower, MONEY) that they cannot simply call it for what it is: A MADE-UP RELIGION. Their prophets have too much at stake to “come clean”. They are wanting to call themselves “Christian” in order to save their own religion. If they can bring legitimacy to their religion by hanging onto the coat tails of Christianity, they will do it in order to survive. There has been so much evidence to question the character and testimony of Joseph Smith (especially the Book of Abraham) that they must find some way to perpetuate their way of life by any means possible.
Sad, but true.
Rick Boyne’s last blog post..Bye Bye BoyneBlog
O.K.
Where did Jesus come from?
Where did Lucifer come from?
Where were you before you were born here?
Rick, it would seem to me that we are not the ones having a difficult time in surviving???
There is a huge difference in desiring to enlighten and save souls versus trying (hopelessly) to “Hang On” to a dying false religion and paycheck.
Bill,
Kevin wouldn’t want anything to happen to you! I can promise you that! He’d want you to first come to a saving relationship with Jesus Christ or else you will not spend eternity with Christ. Bill, trust me. We pray for your salvation every day! And God willing and the creek don’t rise (as my father would say), we’ll see that before too long!
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..The Eyes Have It; No, The Feet Have It!
Bill,
Why else would the Mormon leaders want to be called “Christian” then if all we (Christianity) are is a “dying false religion”? If you all (LDS) have the “corner on truth”, then proclaim it to the highest mountain tops! Don’t jump in bed with the Christians! That is the whole point of Kevin’s post today. Don’t you see it?
Rick Boyne’s last blog post..Bye Bye BoyneBlog
Hey Kevin…if you haven’t already, you might want to check out this news story found on Foxs News today:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,368315,00.html
Quite interesting, to say the least…
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..The Eyes Have It; No, The Feet Have It!
Kevin, if you haven’t seen the story about secret mormon documents being received, you might check out the story on Fox’s Online news site:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,368315,00.html
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..The Eyes Have It; No, The Feet Have It!
Bill, what’s your opinion of the wikileaks releasing the secret mormon documents?
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..The Eyes Have It; No, The Feet Have It!
Bill,
I wouldn’t want anything to happen to you except leave your false religion.
Bill,
Me, either…
Hugh,
I agree with you to an extent. I don’t think that God is worried too much about the details. I think He is mainly worried about our relationship with Jesus Christ and what that leads us to do and believe. I don’t think He cares if we believe we are saved by faith or works or if we believe women have a right to choose or not.
I could be wrong, but I think God is most worried about if we love Him and others. That being said, be aware of false doctrine like some of the things that might be cut and pasted here.
Kevin,
I have also been thinking about Catholicism lately. Will they be in Heaven as Hugh suggests?
Michael’s last blog post..Ecclesiastes 1 & 2 : Wasting Our Lives Away?
Kevin,
I was just discussing this very thing yesterday with a friend, who is a Catholic priest. It’s difficult (or impossible) for us as Christians to just accept those who deny the fundamental teachings of our faith as Christians. What I mean is that we as Christians can all affirm the Nicene Creed. Those who deny these fundamentals of the faith (i.e., the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, Christ’s substitutionary attonement, Resurrection, and imminent return) cannot be Christians. That doesn’t mean that we have to completely understand these things to be Christian, but denying them, or substituting other doctrines for these means that you are not a Christian, but something else.
Bill,
Jesus has always been. Lucifer was created by God because he was an angel.
Michael,
It really doesn’t matter about denomination- It is about having a personal relationship with Jesus. We can differ on the minors but there is only one way to heaven according to Jesus in John 14:6.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..How can you be a Christian if you believe Lucifer was Jesus brother?
Steve,
That supposed leak is H-I-L-A-R-I-O-U-S. I have used that General Handbook of Insturction in my duties as a leader in the past. It is nothing more than a manual outlining..oooooh…such secret topics as guidance for cleaning a building, to how to place the sacrament (what you call communion) on a table, to disciplineship, to door key disbursement, to sunday shcool teacher assignments etc.
In other words, it is the overall operating manual. I am sure all denominations have a similar type of guide to assist them in carrying out daily duties.
You can find information all over the internet, and I think you will be highly disappointed once and if the contents are published
Kevin,
I have always been.
My spirit did not begin here with a physical birth, and will not end at my physical death. We are created in His image. There is no beginning nor end in you, Steve, Rick, Neil, myself or anyone on this blog.
We will go back…just as Jesus Christ did..to that Heavenly Father who created us all.
If you disagree, please show me from the Bible where it specifically states that you did not live in the pre-existence
John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am”
1. Jesus had a premortal existence. The apostle John, who speaks of Christ as the Word made flesh (John 1:14), opens the book that bears his name by testifying, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1.) In other words, in the beginning was Christ, and Christ was with God, and Christ himself also was a God. The important thing for our purpose at the moment, however, is simply that “in the beginning” was Christ.
The apostle Paul also says that in the days of Moses—more than twelve hundred years before Jesus was born—the children of Israel “drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.” (1 Cor. 10:4.)
If any more Bible evidence should be needed to establish the premortal existence of the Savior, you may wish to note a statement that Jesus himself made the night before his crucifixion. With apparent longing for the glory of his previous existence, he prayed, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (John 17:5.)
Thus we see that Jesus was in existence long before his advent into mortality. Let us now check to see whether the Bible teaches that people other than the Savior had a previous spirit life.
2. Jeremiah had a premortal existence. Through revelation the prophet Jeremiah learned something about the preexistence of his own soul. The Lord spoke to him and said, “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” (Jer. 1:5.)
Since, as this passage states, the Lord knew Jeremiah before he was born and sanctified Jeremiah before he was born and ordained Jeremiah before he was born, it must be clear that Jeremiah was in existence before his mortal birth.
3. Job had a premortal existence. On one occasion the Lord asked the prophet Job, “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
“When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4, 7.)
Now although the Lord didn’t tell Job where he was before the foundations of the earth were laid, the very question implies that Job was in existence somewhere—and not only Job but “all the sons of God.” And when we recall that the Bible teaches that we are the sons of God (“the offspring of God” is the way the apostle Paul phrases it in Acts 17:29), we can’t help but conclude that we were in existence with Job (and Jeremiah and the Lord Jesus Christ) before the earth was created.
4. Jesus made no attempt to correct his apostles when they expressed a belief in man’s premortal existence. This conclusion is based on an incident narrated in the ninth chapter of John. In reference to a blind man the apostles asked Jesus, “Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?” (John 9:2.) Note that their question was not simply whether the man’s parents had sinned before he was born but whether the man himself had sinned before he was born. Their query plainly shows that they believed that the man had been both alive and capable of sinning before he was born.
Jesus explained (John 9:3) that neither the man nor his parents had sinned, but the striking fact is that he made no attempt to challenge or correct or alter their basic assumption that the man had had a premortal existence.
5. Certain passages of the Bible make sense only in the light of man’s premortal existence. We as Latter-day Saints understand that during the course of man’s premortal spirit career one third of God’s children rebelled and followed Satan. (See D&C 29:36–38; Moses 4:1–4; Abr. 3:22–28.) This understanding gives meaning to a number of biblical passages bearing on the expulsion from heaven of certain disobedient beings. Consider, for example, 2 Peter 2:4 [2 Pet. 2:4], Jude 1:6, and Revelation 12:7–9 [Rev. 12:7–9].
Bill,
It seems that the LDS argument against wikileaks is over their releasing documents that are copyrighted. If news reports are true, then the vast majority of LDS members have never seen the document, and women in particular are not able to have the materials.
Question for you: since the LDS church seems opposed to the release on the Internet of copyrighted material, do they not mind you cutting and pasting from your materials, without always citing your source (for example your last post here)?
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..The Eyes Have It; No, The Feet Have It!
Bill,
Where did you cut and paste that from?
You are sounding like a Calvinist.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..How can you be a Christian if you believe Lucifer was Jesus brother?
Steve,
Once again. You (I promise) are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Every church (including your won) do not release every possible thing they have.
This once again…is an operational manual…which is a help for those local leaders to use as a guide in handling the PHYSICAL affairs of the church.
In other words, there MUST be in Nashville at SBC Headquarters, a manual (or guide) that would aid or help Dr. Stanley in handling matters at 1st Baptist Atlanta…or…I assume the church is organized in that manner.
Lastly…as I have already mentioned…WIKILEAKS (whomever they are) are a day late and a dollar short. This HUGE SECRET they have falseley claimed to have discovered, has been posted in Wikipedia..and has been there for years
Kevin,
That came directly from the official church website http://www.lds.org
Bill, once again, I disagree with you. I know you are surprised.
My church releases every document we have. We release financials, bylaws, constitution, membership records, and even what the pastor makes. Most of it is given out regularly, if not, all people have to do is ask for it.
Can the same be said of your church? I guess not, you guys haven’t released your financial in how many years now?
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..The Eyes Have It; No, The Feet Have It!
Bill,
I don’t agree with everything my denomination says or does. I give you what I think. What do you think? I don’t want to hear from the LDS propaganda. What do you believe personally how a person goes to heaven? Is the Bible God’s word? Is it equal with the Book of Mormon?
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..How can you be a Christian if you believe Lucifer was Jesus brother?
Kevin,
I don’t know if being a Calvinist is a good thing or a bad. I only know that I have a testimony that Jesus Christ laid down his life for me. His torment in the Garden of Gethsemane and subsequent murder on a cross insures that I have been saved by grace. That is the belief of every Latter Day Saint.
We do not rest our lauresl on the term “once saved always saved.” Why you may ask??? because as previously demonstrated in i Corinthians 15:40, we believe that the Bible IS the word of God. Therefore, we believe that once a person is saved, if he/she is a true follower of Jesus, he/she will strive to live their lives as close to the way the Savior did as possible.
Where we have differences is pre-existence and afterlife.
It seems as though you believe Jesus ascended in the form of a spirit, but I believe he ascended in a physical body and spirit. Reference the fact that his apostles ate fish and bread with him just before the ascension they witnessed.
Kevin,
YES…the Bible is the word of God as long as it is translated correctly. The Bible clearly states that there was a pre-existence. I have just shown that to you in numerous scripture verses. Do you deny what is says and why?
YES…the Book of Mormon (another testament of Jesus Christ) is also Holy scripture.
Will more scripture come forth. YES ABSOLUTELY. When the City of Enoch returns, they will have scriptures with them I fully believe.
Will scriptures be unearthed soon that cooberate the Book of Mormon. I fully expect so.
Bill…you said, “Will more scripture come forth. YES ABSOLUTELY.”
So, if Kevin and I feel led by God to write another set of scripture, you’ll be okay with that? You’ll accept it? After all, what would be different from what we felt led to do and Mr. Smith did?
And just how will the City of Enoch return? Are they coming in space ships? By boat? Float down from the sky?
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..The Eyes Have It; No, The Feet Have It!
Bill,
Who decides if it is translated correctly?
Where are these unearthed scriptures? Are they with the Lock Nest Monster? Are they with Santa Claus? Does Big Foot have them?
Please! Your religion is a hoax! There are no reputable scholars outside of your LDS that believe LDS documents are dated later than the 1800s.
As Tom Cruise says, “I want the Truth!”
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..How can you be a Christian if you believe Lucifer was Jesus brother?
Bill,
You got part of your interpretation of John 1:1 wrong. It didn’t say that Jesus was “a” god; it said He “was” God.
That has a whole lot to do with why LDS teaching is wrong. It isn’t a restoration of the Gospel; it is a perversion.
Oh Kevin…don’t you know: “You can’t handle the truth!”
I personally, think the secret items were given to the LDS by the masons who received them from the easter bunny. Didn’t you see National Treasure, part 1 or 2? C’mon…
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..The Eyes Have It; No, The Feet Have It!
O.K. I wish all of you the very best and may God bless you and your families with the blessings and lessons you stand in need of. You are loved!
Take care!
Bill
Bill is this who you learned your skills of debating Mormonism from?
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..How can you be a Christian if you believe Lucifer was Jesus brother?
One last thing brothers…
In 1998 the SBC held their convention in Salt Lake City.
Armed with 50,000 soldiers, anti-mormon videos, and leaflets, they went throughout the city ans state of Utah, trying to convert the Latter Day Saints…who warmly greeted them.
At the end of the journey, the huge publicity had resulted in Jimmy Carter denouncing his denomination, and thousands of conversions to Mormonism.
So I humbly and graciously thank for all the publicity you have afforded me in spreading the true gospel which is spreading throughout the entire earth, and I leave you with this verse from our Doctrine & Covenants:
D&C 65: 2
2 The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth.
Bill,
You are always good for a laugh, I’ll give you that much!
Bill,
Why are you leaving? No one has asked you to leave. We love having you around.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..How can you be a Christian if you believe Lucifer was Jesus brother?
This is quite a surprise. My site is linked to an anti-Mormon post. I am not here to try to convince anyone that the LDS Church is right or wrong. This only comes from the Holy Spirit. I believe these arguements are pointless and will lead to un-Christian-like behavior. The basic definition of a Christian is one who believes in Christ and follows His gospel. I believe I am a Christian because I love Christ and try to follow His commandments. It doesn’t matter whether you accept the finer details of what to believe I know who Christ is and what He has done in my life. One more thing. Does it say in the Bible that God is the Father of all spirits? Is Satan a spirit? If God is not the Father of Satan’s spirit then who is he and where did he come from? God is the creator of the universe and this world and all worlds in the universe. This would include Satan and his followers unless they magically appeared on the scene just to through confusion into the mix. Was there a prophet or an apostle of God when the Nicene creed was written? If not, then how do you know for sure that what was written was from God? All the books of the Bible written by prophets and apostles of God so we know for sure that they were originally inspired by God and can be trusted. As far as I know, there was not a single prophet or apostle present when the Nicene Creed was written. This was a best guess at what a Christian should be. No one at that time was in agreement on what a Christian is and this was the result.
Randy,
Thanks for stopping by. What would be unChristian is to allow someone to be deceived by a religion that will lead people to hell.
So be it then. I thought that according to the Bible that judgement was only reserved for God and Christ when Christ returns to earth. I am not a cut and paste person. I share my own thoughts and my beliefs are based on my own experience and learning. Since I have been in this Church I have had very deep spiritual experiences and my life has greatly improved. This can only come from God. From my understanding and research I believe that this is God’s Church on this earth. If I am wrong so be it. But you will not find me posting articles accusing or calling someone not a Christian because I won’t accept or understand what they chose to believe in. Only God and Christ sits in judgment of who we are and what we believe.
Randy,
That is a great ploy to play the “judging” card. I don’t pretend to know anyone’s heart-that is up to God. But heresy is heresy & The LDS teachings are not Christian.
Where in the Bible does it say Jesus & Lucifer are brothers?
I am not using any kind of “ploy” or deception or tricks. You and others have determined that the LDS Church is not a Christian church based on the Bible and that we are going to go to hell for believing in it. That is a judgement call.
Read Job 1:6. 6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
Of course, this is my interpretation but to me Satan is among the sons of God that visited Him. Who is the father of the sons of God including Satan? God is. And who is the father of Jesus Christ? God is. Wouldn’t this make Jesus and Satan brothers? According to the definition of a family I believe they are. Are you expecting God to spell everything out for you in the Bible? If Satan is not a son of God then who is he? Isn’t he part of the hosts of heaven that is talked about throughout the scriptures? He was cast out of heaven with his followers. This means he lived in heaven with God. Now, if he wasn’t a son of God why is he living in heaven with Him? Where did he come from? I am not twisting scriptures here nor am I using Mormon logic and arguements. And don’t say that I am. I am simply reading the scriptures and interpreting the meaning.
Randy,
Job is talking about angels. No where in the Bible does it say Jesus ad Lucifer are brothers. Only in LDS writings that were written by a liar named Joseph Smith in the 1800’s.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Will gay rights trample religious freedom?
I don’t know anything about what mormons believe, so I can’t really say anything about that.
But I don’t see the trinity anywhere in my bible, but I sure enough believe that on similar reasoning that randy uses above.
Hugh,
Don’t fall for their trap. They use manipulation and twisting of Scripture. If you are a believer then you need to know what lies are out there. The Bible and the Bible alone is the standard that Christians must base our decisions on. Don’t go by man, other books or your own “spirit” unless it lines up with Scripture.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Will gay rights trample religious freedom?
This is interesting. I didn’t know that I was manipulating anyone or twisting scripture. Considering that I never grew a Mormon and have lived in Utah for only 2 years. Never been on a mission, either. I have been a member for just over 10 years and because of my work I have not been able to attend church regularly for 8 years. I live in Oklahoma right in the middle of Baptist country. So, no I am not a mainstream Mormon. I don’t use tricks or gimmicks like many Christian churches use to bring in people. You asked a question about Satan and I answered it based on my research and understanding. I was baptized a Catholic when I was 1 year old, then baptized a born-again Christian when I was a teenager, then I joined the LDS church when I was in my twenties. I joined because I had searched for many years for the Church that Christ has started as is stated in the Bible. I developed my beliefs long before I joined. They never manipulated me or tricked me into joining. They presented the information and I prayed about it. I grilled them about this church and I took a chance that maybe this is a good church to be part of. I was taught that the LDS church was not a Christian church and to be careful. I was told that they did a lot of weird things that may be evil like sacrifices. I have proved every one one of those rumors to be false. I have been to a few Christian churches before I joined and I never was comfortable attending them. I was tired of being treated like a sinner all the time and most of them seemed to be superficial. I was tricked into going to a free concert given by a Christian church. What I saw horrified me. This was a few years after I joined. Even if I didn’t and went to this I would not ever go back. Metallica music with Christian lyrics? Come on. The Holy Spirit and God that I have known all my life is sweet and soft-spoken and would not ever be part of this garbage. I had to get out of there I was so shook up. and the pastor had the nerve to tell me it was the Holy Spirit that was moving me. I don’t know what spirit that was but it was not the Holy Spirit that I know. Gay Christian pastors? Dinosaur man from Florida? And you complain about the LDS Church? Just about every other month there is something in the news about a pastor in trouble. Pastors begging for money on tv? Send me money and I will pray for you. Not every church is perfect including the LDS church. I don’t really agree with a few things in my church but that does not mean I should condemn it. I don’t know why things happened the way they did back in the 1800’s and I really don’t care. It is just history. If I don’t understand something I pray and study about it. I don’t blindly follow the prophet of my church or any of the leaders. They are great examples of humble men who loves the Lord and try to follow His commandments. They are not perfect nor claim to be. The Lord loves all of His children and would not approve of anyone condemning another’s faith because of their own interpretation of the scriptures. I chose this church because it is what I believe and it is where the Lord wants me to be. The Lord loves a humble man who is teachable. You sound like not a humble man because you refuse to learn new things. Have you even considered what I have said? God created all things in heaven and on earth. Including the spirits both good and evil. Spirits became evil because they rejected the Gospel of Jesus Christ and became enemies of God. But, of course, anything that a Mormon says is a lie and a manipulation of the truth.
Please watch this video from Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USpeolBTKIo
This is the story of Glenn Beck, a very popular radio talk show host. Does this sound like the power of Satan or the power of Christ in his life? As far as I know, Satan is a destroyer of faith and life. If Satan influenced him into joining the LDS Church then why is he closer to God and his family? His life completely changed after he became a member. This sounds to me the power of Jesus Christ working in his life.
Randy,
Do you think Satan would be more cunning coming as an “Evil” looking person or looking good? That is the problem with LDS. People like you and Glen Beck are nice people but nice doesn’t get you into heaven.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..God hates hate!
Kevin,
Even more disturbing than Jesus being Lucifer’s brother, how about the fact that Mormons believe that salvation comes through the consent of Joseph Smith? That seems to be much more damning than simply being the brother of Satan.
This is from mrm.org:
In his article entitled “Joseph Smith Among the Prophets” printed in the June 1994 issue of “Ensign” magazine, Mormon writer Robert L. Millet quoted second LDS Prophet Brigham Young, who, in 1859, stated, “From the day that the priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up things of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are — I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent” (Journal of Discourses 7:238. See also Search These Commandments, 1984, pg. 133).
This is something I actually never realized about Mormonism. It certainly might make a good post topic!
Rick Boyne’s last blog post..Terri Garr
Kevin,
While this is of huge concern, I think I have found something even more important. Evidentally, it is a doctrine of the LDS church that teaches salvation comes by way of Joseph Smith!
I found the following excerpt on mrm.org.
In his article entitled “Joseph Smith Among the Prophets” printed in the June 1994 issue of “Ensign” magazine, Mormon writer Robert L. Millet quoted second LDS Prophet Brigham Young, who, in 1859, stated, “From the day that the priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up things of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are — I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent” (Journal of Discourses 7:238. See also Search These Commandments, 1984, pg. 133).
There are many more instances of this cited there. If the average Mormon knows this and is keeping it to themselves, well, I can see why. However, since it is a doctrine of the LDS church, I don’t think this is something we can overlook.
Perhaps you’d want this to be future post?
Rick Boyne’s last blog post..Terri Garr
Kevin,
While this is of huge concern, I think I have found something even more important. Evidentally, it is a doctrine of the LDS church that teaches salvation comes by way of Joseph Smith!
I found the following excerpt on mrm.org.
In his article entitled “Joseph Smith Among the Prophets” printed in the June 1994 issue of “Ensign” magazine, Mormon writer Robert L. Millet quoted second LDS Prophet Brigham Young, who, in 1859, stated, “From the day that the priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up things of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are — I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent” (Journal of Discourses 7:238. See also Search These Commandments, 1984, pg. 133).
There are many more instances of this cited there. If the average Mormon knows this and is keeping it to themselves, well, I can see why. However, since it is a doctrine of the LDS church, I don’t think this is something we can overlook.
Perhaps you’d want this for a future post?
The actual link to the mrm.org site is:
http://www.mrm.org/topics/joseph-smith/no-salvation-without-joseph-smith
Thanks Rick!
Scary stuff. Randy or Bill - any response?
Creating contention and hatred for another’s faith won’t get you into heaven either. Lack of tolerance for any other faith other than your own and condemning someone to hell based on your views of Christianity won’t get you there either. Try promoting your love of Christ and what He has done in your life. Try writing more uplifting articles that will bring people closer to God and Christ. It is very wrong of you to say that I am being influenced by Satan. You do not know who I am and what my life is.
By the way, I never heard of this from the Journal of Discourses and I don’t believe it is taught in classes. It is not some dark secret we are keeping to ourselves. Jesus Christ is part of our lives and our Church whether you believe it or not. I don’t believe this is a doctrine of the Church and it is not important to me to try to understand this obscure lesson. He may have been talking out of line for all I know. God may have reprimanded Him for teaching this. I don’t know the circumstances before and after this talk and the reasons why he said this. Jesus Christ is my Saviour and has been part of my life long before I joined this Church.
Randy,
There is no hate. I don’t want anyone to perish. I have no idea about you or anyone elses fate. I pray that the decision you made to follow Jesus when you were in a Christian church was for real. If so I will see you in heaven. But the LDS religion is false. That isn’t hate it is concern for people’s souls!
Thanks for your concern. If I am wrong so be it. It bothers me when someone writes about my Church and what I believe and says that it is a false religion. I have worked for many years to develop my beliefs. My beliefs are based on many sources, not just from LDS sources. I have studied a little about ancient cultures and history. I believe that I have sorted out all the basic concepts of Christianity and have built my beliefs based on these concepts and I am still learning. I don’t agree with everything in my Church and members attitudes towards other faiths as well. My Church has been accused of being too prideful in believing that they are the one and only true Church. Many members have become too comfortable in their beliefs and just follow along with whatever is being taught by other members. If this was a Mormon posting I would be saying the same things. I will not defend other members just because they are part of my church. If I believe they are wrong in their attitudes concerning other faiths or people I will tell them. My biggest problem with traditional Christianity is that they are not unified in their beliefs other than Jesus Christ is their Saviour. I just simply cannot accept the idea that God will have a thousand different churches teaching a thousand different doctrines. If God is going to finish His work on this earth He needs a unified Church and people. He has done this in the past according to the Bible why not now? God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Why wouldn’t He re-establish His Church at this time? The LDS Church is the only church that is unified in it’s basic doctrine and has all the elements of the Church of Christ of the New Testament. Satan has been trying to destroy this Church from the beginning and it has survived. Yes, Satan can come as a light and is subtle in all his ways. He is a deceiver and father of lies. If this church was influenced and started by Satan then God would have destroyed it a long time ago like He has done in the past. Satan will not allow any church or anyone to learn to be closer to God. Maybe I am not a good Mormon for writing all this and not supporting everything my Church and the members. But this is where I stand right now. I will always love God and Jesus and I believe they have taught me the truth about them and who they are. Satan cannot hear silent prayers but God and Christ can and they have answered me with what I can handle now.
Randy’s last blog post..Glenn Beck’s conversion story.
Here is a post I found that can better express my thoughts. The comments are from both Christian and Mormons and I believe they make some great points. We just need to get along and start acting like a true Christ-like people or Christians. Please read it with an open mind.
http://graceforgrace.com/2008/05/29/bridging-the-mormonevangelical-divide/
Randy,
As I’ve read everyone on this post going back and forth bashing each other I couldn’t agree with you more. God is love. Jesus is the Savior of the world. A personal relationship with Him is necessary for salvation. One thing both Christians and LDS agree on, which is found in the Nicene Creed is how incomprehensible His love and works are. Regardless of who God is and who Christ is, the fact is that He would want us to love eachother and bashing back and forth isn’t love.
http://www.graceforgrace.com
Aaron’s last blog post..Mormon Rap
Aaron and Randy,
Paul wrote about heresy in his books in the NT. There may be some Mormons who are believers but the church teaches a false doctrine. Their own leader said their Jesus is different than our Jesus.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Billboard reaches out to atheists
Many people think they know what the LDS Church teaches by taking an odd item here and another from there. But does the church really teach that stuff? Is it really doctrine or just the opinion of some long dead guy? Is it doctrine? I have posted on my blog what the dean of BYU Religious Education said to the BYU religion professors in 2003 about the hard questions Mormons were faced with answering. You might be surprised. I was. http://mormonthing.wordpress.com.
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