Jun 16 2008
If a dead Christian is baptized by a Mormon in a forest and no one is there-did they get wet?
Our friend Bill the Mormon said he went to the Nashville Mormon Temple to baptize the dead. How can you baptize someone against their will? Mormons have baptized 1000’s of people without their consent for years including Adolph Hitler in 1993. Isn’t it a little disrespectful to baptize a person who made their choice while they were alive? I believe in free will. I don’t want anyone to perish but if they chose to reject God or even follow a false religion like Mormonism then that is their choice.
The Mormons are angering The Vatican by trying to getting names of Catholics for baptism by proxy. What good does it do to baptize someone against their choice or the choice of their family? Will Billy Graham be baptized by the LDS when he passes? Will I be baptized by proxy? I don’t get it.
Baptism doesn’t save anyone. I believe in baptism as a symbol of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. I have been baptized by emersion out of obedience to Jesus command-but I was saved before I was baptized.
On any given day, in more than fifty Mormon temples around the world, thousands of faithful Mormons are baptized vicariously for the dead. Most non-Mormons are dimly aware that the Mormons are interested in genealogy, but they are not sure why. While there is nothing wrong with being interested in genealogy as a hobby, this is far from a hobby for Mormons.
Mormons believe people who have died can be baptized by proxy, thus allowing them the opportunity to become Mormons after their death. The idea behind baptism for the dead is this: God wants each of us to be with him in glory. To effect this, he allows us to accept the Mormon gospel here on earth. If we do not, he sends us to a “spirit prison” until the Mormon gospel has been preached to us there and we convert.
Mormons believe that their church has missionaries in the “spirit world” who are busy spreading the Mormon gospel to dead people who have not yet received it. Should any of these dead people want to convert to Mormonism, they are required to abide by all its rules, one of which is water baptism. Hence the need for proxies to receive the corporeal waters of baptism. So if you can be saved after you die, then why even bother to be good here on earth?
The Mormon church has teams of men and women microfilming records of Catholic and Protestant parishes, cemetery records, birth and death certificates—virtually any sort of record pertaining to past generations. Temple Mormons hope, in time, to have all of the dead of previous generations baptized posthumously into the Mormon church.
The doctrine of baptism for the dead was first given to the Mormon church by Joseph Smith in 1836 and is found in his Doctrine and Covenants but not, as we’ll see, in the Book of Mormon.
In Paul’s first epistle to the church in Corinth, he treats a number of subjects. This letter was written to counteract problems he saw developing in Corinth after he had established the church there. Corinth had its share of pagan religions, but there were also quasi-Christian groups that practiced variations of orthodox Christian doctrines. Enter baptism for the dead.
Mormons cite a single biblical passage to support baptizing members on behalf of dead persons,
1 Corinthians 15:29
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
Mormons infer that in 1 Corinthians, Paul speaks approvingly of living Christians receiving baptism on behalf of dead non-Christians; however, the context and construction of the verse indicate otherwise. The Greek phrase rendered by the King James Version as “for the dead” is “huper ton nekron”. This phrase is as ambiguous in Greek as it is in English. The preposition huper has a wide semantic range and can indicate “for the sake of,” “on behalf of,” “over,” “beyond,” or “more than.” Like the English preposition “for,” it does not have a single meaning and does not require the Mormon idea of being baptized in place of the dead. Such a reading would be unlikely given the more plausible interpretations available, and even if huper were taken to mean “in the place of,” it doesn’t mean Paul endorses the practice.
First Corinthians 15 is a key chapter for Paul’s teaching on the resurrection of the body. He makes no statement on baptism for dead persons except to note that some unnamed “they” practice it. While the rest of his teaching in chapter fifteen refers to “we,” his Christian followers, “they” are not further identified. Who this group was may not be known with certitude today, but there are some reasonable interpretations:
There is no other evidence in the Bible or in the early Church Fathers’ writings of baptism being practiced on the living in place of the dead. Some Mormon writers assert that some Christian commentators have discussed the possibility of a kind of “baptism for the dead” among some in the Corinthian community in Paul’s time. But these commentators do not suggest that the practice was accepted or mainstream. Given the silence of Scripture and tradition, we conclude rightly when we see this behavior as another aberration within a community of believers already soundly scolded by Paul for its lack of charity, its factionalism, its immorality, its abuse of the Eucharist, and other matters.
Although there is no way of knowing for sure who was engaging in this practice, it is certain that Paul was not referring to orthodox Christians baptizing the dead. Catholic and Protestant scholars agree on that.
The case against baptism for the dead is also made by the Mormon scriptures themselves. The current Mormon doctrine on baptism for the dead is quite unlike what Joseph Smith first taught. As in other cases, the Book of Mormon becomes an important tool for the Christian apologist. It contradicts much Mormon theology, and baptism for the dead is no exception.
In Alma 34:35-36:
“For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord has withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you, and this is the final state of the wicked.”
In other words, those who die as non-Mormons go to hell, period. There’s no suggestion of a later, vicarious admission into the Mormon church. So which is it? Do we believe the Book of Mormon or the later teachings that came out of the LDS? You see, the Bible never changes! It is the same it was 1000’s of years ago. Sure Christians disagree about certain doctrines but true believers know that having a personal relationship with Jesus is the only way to heaven. True believers know that we can’t do anything to gain our salvation–it is all grace!
There is only one way to go to heaven. Accept Jesus as the personal leader or your life. Just because you are born into a Christian home doesn’t mean you are a Christian. So just because I want all of my family, friends and neighbors to go to heaven I can’t manipulate it the process by baptizing by proxy. I wish I could but it doesn’t work. There is one way to God–accept Him today.
What do you think?
51 responses so far
Good post K. I want to spend eternity with jesus. Why in the world would I hope that some Mormon would be baptized in my place so I can become a god on my own planet? And trust me: my wife would not take kindly to being eternally pregnant. I can see all the cutting and pasting coming. I am done with this subject. happy trails!!
Bill(cycleguy)’s last blog post..What a Day!
Well said, Kevin. This is just one more way of showing how Mormons are not Christians and Christians are not Mormons. Baptism required for salvation = unbiblical. Baptism by proxy = unbiblical.
Neil’s last blog post..Botox
Kevin-
We don’t have to stop with baptism for the dead. It is unwise to build any doctrine from any passage as difficult to interpret at this one.
Marty Duren’s last blog post..Blog Tour w/Philip Nation and Ed Stetzer
1 Peter 3: 18 - 20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the congsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1 Cor. 15: 29
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Let the cut and paste begin!
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..If a dead Christian is baptized by a Mormon in a forest and no one is there-did they get wet?
Well Kevin,
Instead of “letting the cut and paste begin” maybe some of the experts on this blog should clearly define the scriptures (from the BIBLE) that I posted above
Besides…you love my posts. It keeps the blog lively ha/ha.
Ok. . . . so . . . I’m not a biblical scholar, but if we could be baptized after we are dead, why not live a Hell-raising life, send a letter to the Mormons upon my death, and let them save my soul after I die?
Michael’s last blog post..Hebrews 10:19 - 13:25: Superiority of Faith
Michael,
My point exactly!
Bill,
I explained the 1 Corinthians passage in this post.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..If a dead Christian is baptized by a Mormon in a forest and no one is there-did they get wet?
Baptisms for the Dead
Jesus Christ taught that baptism is essential to the salvation of all who have lived on earth (see John 3:5). Many people, however, have died without being baptized. Others were baptized without proper authority. Because God is merciful, He has prepared a way for all people to receive the blessings of baptism. By performing proxy baptisms in behalf of those who have died, Church members offer these blessings to deceased ancestors. Individuals can then choose to accept or reject what has been done in their behalf.
Additional Information
Jesus Christ said, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). Even Jesus Christ Himself was baptized (see Matthew 3:13–17).
Many people have lived on the earth who never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ and who were not baptized. Others lived without fully understanding the importance of the ordinance of baptism. Still others were baptized, but without proper authority.
Because He is a loving God, the Lord does not damn those people who, through no fault of their own, never had the opportunity for baptism. He has therefore authorized baptisms to be performed by proxy for them. A living person, often a descendant who has become a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is baptized in behalf of a deceased person. This work is done by Church members in temples throughout the world.
Some people have misunderstood that when baptisms for the dead are performed, deceased persons are baptized into the Church against their will. This is not the case. Each individual has agency, or the right to choose. The validity of a baptism for the dead depends on the deceased person accepting it and choosing to accept and follow the Savior while residing in the spirit world. The names of deceased persons are not added to the membership records of the Church.
The New Testament indicates that baptisms for the dead were done during the time of the Apostle Paul (see 1 Corinthians 15:29). This ordinance was restored with the establishment of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Scripture References
Malachi 4:5–6; John 5:25; 1 Peter 4:6; 3 Nephi 25:5–6; D&C 124:93; D&C 128:17–18
Bill,
The John 3:5 passage isn’t about Baptism. Water refers to purification and to birth.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..If a dead Christian is baptized by a Mormon in a forest and no one is there-did they get wet?
Kevin,
I do not think you explained 1 Corinthians 15:29, as much as you discounted it the truthfulness of it.
Which is confusing since you and others on this blog claim to teach the truth from the Bible.
The scripture was not from the Book of Mormon, but from the King James Bible.
Is your Bible a multiple choice document whereas christians use the parts that best suit their life, and thus discount the rest as nonsense?
Bill,
explain the contradiction of the Book of Mormon and later LDS teaching on this?
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..If a dead Christian is baptized by a Mormon in a forest and no one is there-did they get wet?
Kevin,
Kevin,
I cannot explain WHY you and others choose to omit important information from the scriptures. It’s either all true or all false.
Anyway, I have something even greater to share with this group. It is mind boggling and sheds light on the differences many of us have.
Is it alright if I share it with everyone?
Bill,
You are always free to share.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..If a dead Christian is baptized by a Mormon in a forest and no one is there-did they get wet?
FREEMASONRY & THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION
Lamentation is often heard concerning the apostate condition of the Southern Baptist Convention. However, there is a reasonable explanation for the broad path which the SBC is traveling, namely important statistics regarding the number of Freemasons who hold membership in the SBC, as published by Biblical Discernment Ministries:
“U.S. membership [in the Masons] is claimed at about three million, with about five million worldwide… The official magazine of Masonry in the U.S. is titled New Age. Some church denominations are also led by avowed Masons. For example, a 1991 survey by the Southern Baptist Convention Sunday School Board found that 14% of SBC pastors and 18% of SBC deacon board chairs are Masons. It is also estimated that SBC members comprise 37% of total U.S. lodge membership. (A 2000 updated SBC report found that over 1,000 SBC pastors are Masons.)”
37% of 3,000,000 would have been 1,110,000 Masons who held membership in the SBC. This estimate was for 1991. How many are there today? Also, how many Masons attend SBC churches but do not hold formal memberships? And how many Masons belong to other Christian denominations? (A Freemason once informed us that the Masons encourage their members to go to church.)
In 1993, the Southern Baptist Convention published a Report on Freemasonry which noted the many fine SBC leaders who were also Freemasons as well as many points of agreement between Freemasonry and Christianity, along with some areas of disagreement between the two. The verdict of the SBC as to whether or not a Southern Baptist could also be a member of a Masonic Lodge was not based on the Scriptural prohibition of I Cor. 10:21: “Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils.” Instead the Southern Baptist Convention appealed to the old Masonic cliché regarding every man’s “liberty of conscience”:
“In light of the fact that many tenets and teachings of Freemasonry are not compatible with Christianity and Southern Baptist doctrine, while others are compatible with Christianity and Southern Baptist doctrine, we therefore recommend that consistent with our denomination’s deep convictions regarding the priesthood of the believer and the autonomy of the local church, membership in a Masonic Order be a matter of personal conscience. Therefore, we exhort Southern Baptists to prayerfully and carefully evaluate Freemasonry in the light of the Lordship of Christ, the teachings of the Scripture, and the findings of this report, as led by the Holy Spirit of God.”
THE JESUS SEMINAR IN THE SBC
Considering that over 1 million Freemasons belong to the Southern Baptist Convention, and many hold positions of authority, it is not surprising that in 1998 a Jesus Seminar leader was invited to address an SBC congregation.
“In February Jesus Seminar leader Marcus Borg spoke for three days at Myers Park Baptist Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. Myers Park is affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention.
“Borg denies that Jesus Christ even claimed to be the Messiah. He denies that Jesus Christ was virgin born. He denies the bodily resurrection of Christ. He denies that Christ worked miracles. ‘We would say these are paranormal happenings, meaning things we don’t have an explanation for’ (The Charlotte Observer, Monday, Feb. 16, 1998, p. 6C).
“In 1992 Borg stated: ‘It is a distortion of Scripture to read [the Bible] as a book of the future. It has a profoundly disturbing effect, and leads to the image of God as judge and emphasizes us as getting ready for judgment. It takes us away from the world’ (The Berean Call, Apr. 1992).
“That same year Borg testified that He believes almost nothing in the Bible: ‘I would argue that the truth of Easter does not depend on whether there was an empty tomb, or whether anything happened to the body of Jesus. … I do not see the Christian tradition as exclusively true, or the Bible as the unique and infallible revelation of God. … It makes no historical sense to say, ‘Jesus was killed for the sins of the world.’ … I am one of those Christians who does not believe in the virgin birth, nor in the star of Bethlehem, nor in the journeys of the wisemen, nor in the shepherds coming to the manger, as facts of history” (Bible Review, December 1992).
“The misnamed Jesus Seminar, composed of some 75 ‘experts in religion and New Testament studies,’ began meeting in March 1985 (its organization was first announced in 1978) with the supposed object of discovering which words of the Gospels are authentic. After a passage was discussed by the participating ’scholars,’ they used colored pegs to indicate the degree of authenticity they felt should be ascribed to it. Red means they believe it is definitely authentic; pink for maybe; gray for probably; black for absolutely not authentic. The colors indicate degrees of doubt in God’s Word. In 1993 the Jesus Seminar published The Five Gospels: The Search for the Authentic Words of Jesus. This included a new translation called ‘The Scholar’s Translation.’ The color coding was incorporated into the text to describe the degree to which the various portions of the Gospels are considered authentic by the Jesus Seminar. Most of the passages are black!
“The Seminar concluded that Christ spoke only 18 percent of the sayings attributed to Him in the Bible. According to the Jesus Seminar, Christ did not speak most of the beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount; He did not say anything about turning the other cheek or giving to those who ask of you; He did not speak the parable of the sower, the parable of the ten virgins, the parable of the ten pieces of money, or the parable of the talents; He did not say ‘I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it’; He did not pray in the garden of Gethsemane; He did not say ‘Take eat, this is my body’ and the other sayings associated with the Lord’s Supper; He did not say ‘Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do’ or ‘My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me’ when He was on the cross.
“The Jesus Seminar determined that Christ did not walk on the water; he did not feed the thousands with only a few loaves and fishes; Christ gave no prophecies of His death or resurrection or second coming; Christ did not conduct the Last Supper as it is recorded in Scripture; there was no Jewish trial of Christ; Christ did not appear before the high priest or before Pilate; the Jewish crowd did not participate in His condemnation; Christ did not rise again bodily on the third day and did not ascend to Heaven bodily.
“According to the Jesus Seminar, ‘THE STORY OF THE HISTORICAL JESUS ENDED WITH HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS AND THE DECAY OF HIS BODY’ (Religious News Service, March 6, 1995). (Christ-Denier Speaks at Southern Baptist Church)
THE GNOSTIC GOSPELS OF THE JESUS SEMINAR
Presently there are an abundance of books which promote the thesis of the Jesus Seminar: that the true message of Jesus Christ was suppressed by the early Church but has been preserved in non-canonical works written by Gnostics ~ especially the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were discovered in Qumran in 1945, and the Nag Hammadi Library, which was discovered in Egypt in 1947.
The majority of books promoting these heretical manuscripts are of Masonic origin: The Hiram Key; The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception; The Message of the Sphinx; Holy Blood, Holy Grail; and Bloodline of the Holy Grail. 1.
The Introduction to a popular volume of the Nag Hammadi Library rejects the inspiration of two of the Gospels in the traditional Christian canon:
“The Jewish Christianity of the first generation in Galilee that developed the collection of sayings imbedded in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke may well have been considered heretical even by Paul and the Hellenists, and the feeling may have been mutual.”
The Gospel of Mark is also suspect, according to the Masonic authors of Holy Blood, Holy Grail, subsequent to the recovery in 1958 of the Gnostic Secret Gospel of Mark near Jerusalem. 2.
Since its inception in 1985, the Jesus Seminar has been preoccupied with discrediting Jesus Christ as revealed in the canon of Scripture and seeking to discover “the historical Jesus” in the Gnostic scriptures. With three Gospels of the New Testament now discredited, Jesus Seminar scholars have turned to a new gospel which presents “another Jesus” who preaches “another Gospel.”
A survey of the Jesus Seminar, available at the University of California at Santa Barbara web site, mentions their “scholarly” translation of a new version which includes the “recent archeological discovery” ~ the Gospel of Thomas:
“Part of the project was also the preparation of a new translation of the gospels, prepared by a group within the Seminar, known as ‘the Scholars Version.’ This translation, and the work of the Jesus Seminar as a whole, includes the non-canonical Gospel of Thomas, preserved in a Coptic version as part of the Nag Hammadi Codices discovered in Upper Egypt in 1945…The results of all this work appeared in 1993: The Five Gospels: The Search for the Authentic Words of Jesus, by Robert W. Funk, Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar, published by Macmillan in New York.”
Gnosis means “knowledge” - specifically hidden or occult knowledge. The Gnostics taught that it is possible for Man to attain to the divine state through the knowledge of secret mysteries. The Introduction to the Gospel of Thomas describes the Gnostic message of “another Jesus” who imparts gnosis to those seeking their divine origin:
“The Gospel of Thomas in its oldest form, stressed the finding of wisdom, or of the ‘Kingdom of the Father,’ in the knowledge (gnosis) of oneself (cf. saying 3), guided by the sayings of Jesus…The theme of recognizing oneself is further elaborated in sayings (cf. 50, 51) which speak of the knowledge of one’s divine origin…”
Note the variety of New Age concepts preached by the Gnostic Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas:
(22) “Jesus said to them, ‘When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female; and when you fashion eyes in place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then you will enter the kingdom.” (As above, so below; androgyny)
[NOTE: According to The Message of the Sphinx, the “‘Hermetic writings’ (of the Gnostic School of Alexandria, Egypt)…express the philosophy ‘as above, so below’ and advocate the drawing down to earth of cosmic powers as an essential step in Mankind’s quest for knowledge of the divine and immortality of the soul: ‘And I, said Hermes, will make Mankind intelligent, I will confer wisdom on them, and make known to them the truth. I will never cease to benefit thereby the life of mortal men; and then will I benefit each one of them when the force of nature working in him is in accord with the movement of the stars.’” 3.]
(30) “Jesus said, ‘When you disrobe without being ashamed and take up your garments and place them under your feet like little children and tread upon them, then [will you see] the son of the living one, and you will not be afraid.” (sexual rites of initiation)
(41) “Jesus said, ‘Whoever has something in his hand will receive more, and whoever has nothing will be deprived of even the little he has.” (cf., Rev. 13:16,17)
(50) “Jesus said, ‘If they say to you, ‘Where did you come from?, say to them, ‘We came from the light, the place where the light came into being on its own accord and established [itself] and became manifest through their image…” (divine origin of man)
(61) “Salome said, ‘Who are you, man, that you…have come up on my couch and eaten from my table. Jesus said to her, ‘I am he who exists from the undivided. I was given some of the things of my father.” (Jesus not co-equal with God)
(70) “Jesus said, ‘That which you have will save you if you bring it forth from yourselves. That which you do not have within you [will] kill you if you do not have it within you.” (god within)
(72) “[A man said] to him, ‘Tell my brothers to divide my fathers possessions with me. He said to him, ‘O man, who has made me a divider?’ He turned to his disciples and said to them, ‘I am not a divider, am I?” (ecumenical unity)
(77) “Jesus said, ‘It is I who am the light which is above them all. It is I who am the all. From me did the all come forth, and unto me did the all extend. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up a stone, and you will find me there.” (pantheism)
(114) “Simon Peter said to them, ‘Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life. Jesus said, ‘I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven.” (androgyny)
MASONIC TAKEOVER OF THE DENOMINATIONS
Gnosticism began to threaten the doctrine of the Church during Apostolic times and became fully developed as a major heresy in the second century A.D. Paul seems to have been dealing with an early form of Gnosticism in the book of Colossians, where there are references to a religious system that attempted to devalue the person of Jesus Christ and undermine His redemptive work by promoting a combination of Greek speculation (2:4,8-10), Jewish legalism (2:11-17), and Oriental mysticism (2:18-23). The theme of Colossians is the complete sufficiency of Jesus Christ, rather than forbidden knowledge, for every spiritual and practical need of the believer.
Today, the Gnostic heresy is enjoying a worldwide revival. Other denominations besides the SBC, such as the United Methodist Church, have also invited speakers from the Jesus Seminar to address their congregations. By promoting the heretical doctrines of the Jesus Seminar and Freemasonry, these denominations have become major vehicles for the dissemination of Gnosticism.
It appears that this renaissance of Gnosticism has not been spontaneous, but is the result of premeditated infiltration of Christian churches. The writings of New Agers such as Theosophist Alice Bailey revealed that plans to form a fifth column within ALL denominations were laid early in this century:
“Very definitely may the assurance be given here that, prior to the coming of the Christ, adjustments will be made so that at the head of all great organizations will be found either a Master, or an initiate who has taken the third initiation. At the head of certain of the great occult groups, of the Freemasons of the world, and of the various great divisions of the church, and resident in many of the great nations will be found initiates or Masters.” 4.
“The Christian church in its many branches can serve as a St. John the Baptist, as a voice crying in the wilderness, and as a nucleus through which world illumination may be accomplished. I indicate the hope. I do not assert a fact. Its work is intended to be the holding of a broad Platform. The church must show a wide tolerance, and teach no revolutionary doctrines or cling to any reactionary ideas. The church as a teaching factor should take the great basic doctrines and (shattering old forms in which they are held) show their true and inner spiritual significance. The prime work of the church is to teach, and to teach ceaselessly, preserving the outer appearance in order to reach the many who are accustomed to church usages. Teachers must be trained; Bible knowledge must be spread; the sacraments must be mystically interpreted, and the power of the church to heal must be demonstrated.
“The three main channels through which the preparation for the new age is going on might be regarded as the Church, the Masonic Fraternity and the educational field. All of them are as yet in relatively static condition, and all are as yet failing to meet the need and to respond to the inner pressure. But in all of these three movements, disciples of the Great Ones are to be found and they are steadily gathering momentum and will before long enter upon their designated task.” 5.
The Masonic New World Order
Christopher Knight & Robert Lomas, The Hiram Key, Element Books, 1996; Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception, Element Books, Touchstone Books, 1993; Graham Hancock & Robert Bauval, The Message of the Sphinx, Three Rivers Press, 1996; Michael Biagent, Richard Leigh & Henry Lincoln,Holy Blood, Holy Grail, Dell Publishing, 1982 ; Laurence Gardiner, Bloodline of the Holy Grail, Element Books, 1996.
Holy Blood, Holy Grail, p. 320.
The Message of the Sphinx, pp. 132, 270.
Alice Bailey, Initiation: Human & Solar, Lucis Publishing, 1922, pp. 61-2.
Alice Bailey, The Externalisation of the Hierarchy, Lucis Pub., 1957, pp. 510-11
Bill,
I’m not a Mason so what does that have to do with Baptism of the dead? You duck every question.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..If a dead Christian is baptized by a Mormon in a forest and no one is there-did they get wet?
Genesis 17:14
“Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”
Why stop with baptism for the dead? I think circumcision for the dead makes more sense.
Kevin,
Actually, I amswer evry question, and all the geniuses on here duck, bob, and weave. They need address the scriptures which I have provided for them out of their own Bible’s.
So, maybe they are part of the one million masons whom have infiltrated the Baptist denomination, in an effort to remove the many plain and precious truths (again right there in your Bible) that many seminary trained pastors fail to teach.
Again…is the entire Bible true or false? It’s NOT a pick and choose gospel. Is the Bible true or not???
You, an alleged christian (who just last week stated that you were not going to judge others beliefs again) opened this can of worms today.
So I see you and your other Masonic trained cohorts as the reason so many folks must be Baptized after death…since…they were duped into believing false doctrine and following false teachings during life.
Bill,
You are delusional. We answer every question. What about the contradictions between the Book of Mormon and your other holy books? Maybe you’ve been spending too much time under water baptizing the dead!
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..If a dead Christian is baptized by a Mormon in a forest and no one is there-did they get wet?
Kevin,
Several weeks ago, you told me that you were an Anabaptist. Am I correct?
Why were they Europe’s early Marxists, and do you consider yourself a Marxist?
Just wondering, because I have noticed that his theories may have been taught at Samford Univrsity.
http://nogodzone.blogspot.com/2007/01/those-crazy-anabaptists-europes-first.html
Bill,
I’m a Christian who happens to serve on staff on a Baptist church. I didn’t major in religion at Samford. When I was there it was pretty conservative politically.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..If a dead Christian is baptized by a Mormon in a forest and no one is there-did they get wet?
Kevin,
Are Baptism’s for the dead legitimate?
Bill,
NEVER!
Answer my question–How do you explain the contradictions above about the Book of Mormon and your other holy books?
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..If a dead Christian is baptized by a Mormon in a forest and no one is there-did they get wet?
Bill,
Watch what stones you throw. Joseph Smith was a Mason as were his brothers and many of LDS early saints. So, I guess HE was drinking with the Lord and with the devil, huh? No big deal since they are brothers, I guess. (No one, including myself, in my SBC church is a Mason nor do I personally know any SBC pastors who are Masons)
BTW, this is just another example of your marvelous talent for diversion. So back to the actual content of the post: Is there a list from which I can specifically request to NOT be baptize by proxy by the LDS? If so, I would be most delighted to sign that list. If there is no such list, I would be delighted to be the first one to sign a list to that effect.
And, I need to agree with Kevin that you DO NOT answer every question. I’m still waiting for you to answer mine from week before last.
Kevin,
Really interesting post, bro. I completely agree with your assessment that this, even by itself, proves that Mormonism isn’t Christianity.
Rick Boyne’s last blog post..Big Annoucement!
Kevin,
How could have told me so many times that the Bible is the “final word of God, but yet you deny it’s contents?
When you tell me that you worship a different Jesus Christ than I do, you are exactly right.
You cannot say that the Bible is the final word of God (which you have told me so many times) and still deny that this scripture exists in that book.
1 Corinthians 15:29
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Bill,
I’ve already told you that you took that passage out of context! Paul kind of mentions it in passing. Paul is not saying this is a practice that needs to be done–he says it was being done. Your own book of Mormon doesn’t even mention this practice yet later books say it is necessary. So how do you explain the discrepancies?
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..If a dead Christian is baptized by a Mormon in a forest and no one is there-did they get wet?
Kevin,
Who are you to tell me that I took something out of context. I say you did
You say the Bible is the literal and unchangeable word of God, and now you are telling mem that I am taking that literal and unchangeable word of God out of context.
Amazing
Bill,
What is so amazing is to read your accusations and realize you are just doing it so that you don’t have to answer questions.
Rick Boyne’s last blog post..Big Annoucement!
Bill,
Do you study Greek? Every passage has to be taken in context.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..If a dead Christian is baptized by a Mormon in a forest and no one is there-did they get wet?
Kevin,
My study of Greek is limited to Souvlaki, Gyro’s, and Baklava. When I was in Athens (in the NAVY), I became very proficient at studying a menu ha/ha
Rick,
You are the pot calling the kettle black. You have yet to tell your congregation that they are being taught Roman Catholic false doctrine…distorted by a nut job at Nicea.
Don’t you men have better things to do than to openly attack the Latter Day Saints? I mean after all, you need to go and create that database of all those sexual predators within your ranks don’t you? Oh I almost forgot…that was overruled last week by the SBC wasn’t it? Those poor children! A plain case of protect the career…NOT the victims!
Thank you for again validating my point.
Rick Boyne’s last blog post..Big Annoucement!
This is scary stuff isn’t it? Founded on the same internet as negative Mormon threads.
The Cult Leader In A Baptist Church- A Dividing Rift
by Tony Robinson
Cults vs. Churches
The Greek work ekklesia has been translated as church in modern English New Testaments, and it literally means a called out assembly. The apostles understood the term historically referred to a Greek town meeting which was sovereign and had a purpose, a meeting place, a membership, and guidelines governing the meetings and membership. However, in Mark 15:15, Jesus differentiated between the Greek churches and His Church. His church was founded upon Him, bought by Him, espoused to Him, and given a special purpose from Him. A unique approach for the functioning of Jesus’ Church is signified by its special title: the Bride of Christ.
The church of Jesus is not merely an organization, but an organism. The members are to be in one mind and in one accord. Though there is already unity in Christ via regeneration, each member is to function in a complimentary fashion to others so that the whole body (corpus) functions as one in Christ (christi): without schism or fear from members.
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (Eph 4:16)
There is no fear in love. (I John 4:18a)
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear: but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. (II Timothy 1:7)
“The cult leader in a Baptist church is not interested in molding a person’s will so that they will want to yield it to Christ. The cult leader wants to break the will of his listener. This act comes straight from bewitching sorcery in which a person is made more accessible not only to the leader but also to demonic oppression. At the very least, one’s sense of judgment goes awry after being broken under cult leadership, tending to make one more malleable, gullible, and leadable. ”
…The church should center itself on Jesus and lift up His Word as its only absolute standard. No one will be “Reverend” except God and none will be master or Rabbi except the Lord (Psalms 111:9, Mt 23:7). The atmosphere of the church is to be governed by scripture and thus the atmosphere is not restrictive toward the members to the point that they are not allowed to exercise their God-sanctioned abilities within the church. Each person should be allowed to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and to witness on a consistent basis. Yet, many independent Baptist preachers have ingrained in their congregations a practice foreign to the early Church of God: the Popish Roman philosophy of “clergy”’ and “laity.” The consensus of the clergy is that the laity are far too ignorant to be able to choose correctly for themselves; therefore, the laity must follow the clergy on all aspects. The laity becomes the pawns played by the chess master. The pawns do door knocking, tithe giving, pew filling and other checkmates giving the preacher the recognition of being a first class chess player among his peers. Such concepts of slave membership are mere perversions of the New Testament pattern.
…Masons hold eight specific elements that permeate Masonic Lodges.
(1) There are mysteries involved;
(2) These are passed on to only a select few;
(3) To receive these mysteries one must be personally worthy;
(4) A process of initiation is required;
(5) The initiation involves secret rituals;
(6) This takes place under controlled conditions, usually a temple;
(7) In the process, the initiates are sworn to secrecy;
(8) The penalty for revealing this secret knowledge to the non-initiated is death.
Cult leaders in Baptist churches use most if not all the above Masonic principles during either staff meeting or in college classrooms. For example,
1) The insinuation of a clergy and a laity class; the clergy are the illumined ones who must make the decisions for the uniformed laity.
2) Only those members who show themselves to be loyal beyond reason (blind obedience) are allowed to advance in “My church.” Pastoral candidates are told that they will be accountable only to God in their future churches.
3) The average member never sees the by-laws of the church or some of the deep subjects of a church.
4) Starvation for Bible college students and their families while giving tithes and paying tuition or excessive compulsive attention to the church are looked upon as the initiation dues that one must endure before advancing.
5) Secrecy of scandals: what was said in the classroom, sermon tape cutting, reports being altered or glossed over before making them available to the church in that money expenditures are grouped under various names so that tracing them to find out the exact purpose and deposition is impossible.
6) Of course, ostracizing and character assassination usually results when you reveal a lack of dedication in blind loyalty.
Yes, there are those who control the sheep through fear/intimidation/threats/dire warnings; for example, that if you leave the group you are “out of God’s will for your life,” you will experience tragedy, or your children will go to Hell. Here is a list of some things that some cultish pastors do:
1. Individuals are berated by name from the pulpit.
2. Pastor wants veto power over important decisions in your life.
a. The home to buy
b. The car to buy
c. Who you should marry
d. Whether or not you should take another job
3. You are intimidated into participating in special offerings. In some churches the pastor TELLS each staff member how much they will give in special offerings!
4. Pastor controls the checkbook. Perhaps even writes and signs all the checks.
5. The Pastor and his family live under a different set of rules than everyone else.
6. Pastor wants to be involved in all of your decisions concerning raising your children.
7. Pastor constantly talks to you about the way you spend your money
8. Pastor tells you not to be hanging around certain families. Tells your children to stay away from other kids. A pastor ask for your help to remove unwanted members.
9. Pastor goes so far as to tell you to separate from your own family because of their disloyalty to the church or the pastor. He even tells you to not to let your parents see their grand children.
10. You never see any church financial statements.
Obviously many sheep can write their own letter about their experience with an abusive pastor or cult leader. But God’s word is unchanging:
Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. “Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. “For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
“But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. “They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, “greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ “But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. “And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. “But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. “And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. Matthew 23:1-12
Bill,
What does that have to do with Baptism by proxy.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..If a dead Christian is baptized by a Mormon in a forest and no one is there-did they get wet?
Kevin,
Never make a promise you are not willing to keep. Last week, you had a mighty change of herat, and had seen good in all peoples and their religious differences.
This morning, you awoke to the determination to makke fun of me and my beliefs.
I truly want to see you exert these same (Christ like qualities N-O-T) energies toward the Islamic people…unless of course you fear they are not as nice as I am?
One must wonder why you fear the Latter Day Saints so much?
Bill,
I said I don’t want fighting among Christians. LDS are not Christians.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..If a dead Christian is baptized by a Mormon in a forest and no one is there-did they get wet?
“You cannot say that the Bible is the final word of God (which you have told me so many times) and still deny that this scripture exists in that book.
1 Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”
Yes, the scripture exists. No, it doesn’t mean the Bible teaches baptism for the dead. Paul was just acknowledging that some people used that practice. Again, ” It is clear from the context, however, that Paul distinguished his own practice and teaching from that described here. He merely held up the teaching of being baptized for the dead as a practice of some who denied the Resurrection.
Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-c1985). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures. Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.”
Neil’s last blog post..Botox
Neil,
If the Dallas Theological Seminary told you that crap tastes like chicken, would you eat some?
Bill,
Why do you insist on saying you are a Christian when the theology you teach goes against the teachings of the Bible?
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..If a dead Christian is baptized by a Mormon in a forest and no one is there-did they get wet?
Bill,
Thanks for being so transparent with the shallowness of your views, logic and ability to dialogue. I know that it is very hard to leave cults, so I am not surprised when Mormons aren’t bothered by their seemingly endless contradictions. But I do appreciate it when LDS defenders make it so easy to show the undecided how non-Christian and error-filled their belief system is.
Regards,
Neil
Neil’s last blog post..Botox
I’ve participated in performing baptisms for the dead and it’s a wonderful and sweet opportunity. They do not “become Mormons” nor are they forced to be baptized. They’re simply given the opportunity to accept Christ in case they didn’t have the chance on this earth. It also gives those of us here to perform a selfless service for someone else, without even knowing them.
Thank you for discussing this principle on your blog. I’m sure many readers here have given this additional thought due to this discussion. The gospel of Jesus Christ is such a wonderful, glorious blessing.
Muldoonal,
I see you are from Salt Lake City. Do you work for the LDS? How can you be given a chance to accept Christ after you are dead?
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..I need some fluff teaching!
All, Please see my recent post for an in-depth study of Temple Worship from a scholastic, open-minded and respectful viewpoint. I encourage you to watch the entire video posts. Watch Part IV: “Vicarious Work” for a greater understanding regarding the current topic at hand.
None of us have to fully understand someone else’s beliefs in order to honor and respect their sincerity. Living a Christ-like life means to always extend love towards each other as fellow human beings and children of God. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sincerely believe that they are serving their brothers and sisters who have gone before. What a beautiful idea this truly is. And, If in fact vicarious work is not a correct teaching then it does not matter if millions of faithful LDS people spend their efforts engaged in this harmless activity. However, if there is in fact validity in this practice, and it is in fact a commandment from God, then what a beautiful blessing it will be in the end that someone followed through.
- All the best
Mormon Soprano’s last blog post..By: Courtney
Courtney,
Thanks for stopping by. It is only harmless when it doesn’t give people false hope. Your practices are not Biblical. What good does it do to live a Godly life if you know someone can take care of it after you are dead?
LDS people are nice but your teachings are sending people to hell.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..I need some fluff teaching!
Please check out the Pastor of Hermas 9:16 and Clement of Alexandria Stomata 6:6
And Tertullian explains why the Roman Church discarded the ordinance of Baptism for the Dead: “But inasmuch as “some are also baptized for the dead: we will see whether there be a good reason for this. Now it is certain that they adopted this practice with such a presumption as made them suppose that the vicarious baptism in question would be beneficial to the flesh of another in anticipation of the resurrection; for unless it were a bodily resurrection, there would be no pledge secured by this process of a corporeal baptism (Tertullian, On the Resurrection of the Flesh 48
Mormons Are Christian’s last blog post..To: BigOnDrums
The Apostles, near the end of Jesus’ discourse in the Epistle of the Apostles, mentioned the doctrine of salvation for the dead. “And we will preach it to those to whom it is fitting” Epistula Apostolorum 40. Even though Chrysostom didn’t agree with the practice of baptism for the dead, he refused to discuss the subject openly. That’s why there is only brief mention of the ordinance in the New Testament.
Mormons Are Christian’s last blog post..To: BigOnDrums
Mormons are Christian,
Which is more reliable the Bible or the Book of Mormon?
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..I need some fluff teaching!
Kevin,
We have been blessed with several books of scripture.
There are many remarkable truths which I hold dear, but maybe one of the most amazing is a revelation which the Prophet Joseph Smith received form the Lord in 1832. Please scroll down (notice) the first verse…and remember this was received in 1832!
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 87
Revelation and prophecy on war, given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, December 25, 1832. HC 1: 301–302. This section was received at a time when the brethren were reflecting and reasoning upon African slavery on the American continent and the slavery of the children of men throughout the world.
1–4, War foretold between the Northern States and the Southern States; 5–8, Great calamities shall fall upon all the inhabitants of the earth.
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.
4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;
7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.
8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh bquickly, saith the Lord. Amen.
Kevin,
You seem to believe sincerely that Mormon beliefs are not beneficial because they differ from yours. Mormons believe earnestly that baptism for the dead is beneficial for those who didn’t hear the gospel who accept it after death. Bill cited some scriptures from the NT that we LDS interpret differently than you that confirm our belief that those who haven’t heard the gospel will be taught it after death. The scripture you cite from the BOM does not contradict baptism for the dead for the following reasons (according to our interpretation):
1 - repentance is an ongoing process, not just a one-time event in one’s life that culminates in baptism. After baptism, we all sin again and are in need of continual repentance.
2 - “procrastinating the day of your repentance” is intended to invite all to follow Christ now and to give up their sins and accept the gospel (even people already baptized); the people Amulek is teaching have heard the gospel from him, and he is admonishing them to accept it.
3 - the premise of baptism for the dead usually presupposes that the beneficiaries did not have access to baptism during their lifetime; it is not generally intended for those who have heard it but rejected it, although the possibility exists that they rejected it due to ineffective preaching or some other circumstance that was unfavorable and less in their control.
The premise means that even if you never heard of Christ in your lifetime, you can be able to accept it in the after life. It may not be as easy for one who has lived a dissolute life as one who has lived a good life, but the effort is to provide equal access to all, regardless of where and when they lived. Others have already clarified that it is still up to the individual whether they choose to accept that ordinance or not. God doesn’t force people, and neither do we in performing what we consider to be a saving ordinance on their behalf.
It is also not the only purpose in our genealogical work. We also believe strongly in the value of our family ties throughout the generations. Genealogy work has enriched the lives of many, both in and out of the church.
Hawkgrrrl,
Thanks for your comment. You are free to believe what you want but your religion is not Christian because it contradicts the teachings of Jesus.