Jun 09 2008
Church Police
Probably one of my biggest pet peeves is the “CHURCH POLICE.” What are the Church Police? They are Church people who feel it is their God given call in life to criticize every ministry that is different than theirs. They appear differently depending on if they are attacking their own pastor or if they are attacking some other pastor.
When we started our church in Atlanta, my friend Jason Burns made an interesting observation. He said the only people who will call you in regards to our mailings will be those who disapprove of our new church. Boy was he right! I received dozens of calls from people wanting to know what we believed. I finally got smart and put our statement of beliefs on our website. I never received criticism from people outside the church. I have always received the worst tongue lashing from those inside the church. What happened to grace?
One man, who is probably still lurking today even though I’m not his pastor anymore actually printed out all that had said over a year on my blogs and others! Who has that much time? He didn’t like the fact that I read Mark Driscol or Rick Warren. He even got a group together to try to remove me as pastor.
Probably the biggest lightning rod in the Christian church today is Rick Warren. There is no grey area with Rick. People either like him or hate him. Those who hate him are in the church! I personally like him a lot. I don’t agree with everything he says but the man has had a huge impact on my life. He actually sent me a hand written note a few year ago and I still have it today.
There are websites, books and even messages that sole purpose is to take down Rick Warren. I don’t get it! They claim that Rick doesn’t preach the Gospel. There was one man comparing him to Jim Jones! Please! The rub for me is these people are spending so much time attacking other ministries that they probably are neglecting their own ministries to the unchurched right around them!
There are many ministries that I disagree with. One being the Health/Wealth ministers. But I have never said they weren’t believers or devoted websites to remove them. I just chose not to attend there.
I wonder what it looks like to those outside the church when they see Christians attacking their own? I’ve often found more grace from those who aren’t believers. It is time to retire the “CHURCH POLICE” and be on mission for Christ.
What do you think?
37 responses so far
I agree with you K. The “church police” or as I like to call them the “doctrine police” are pains in the uhhhhhhh behind. It is too bad that there will always be those who try to run someone else’s life by “you can’t do this or that” type of thinking. Legalism died at the cross. Freedom came as a result of that. Like you, I may not always agree with what Rick says but I respect the man. He is doing something, no make that far more, than I am. And I refuse to jump on someone’s bandwagon because they have an ax to grind. btw: I wonder what his accusers are doing for the HIV/AIDS patients/pandemic we face (other than criticize him and condemn the homosexual population for the “curse”). Grrrrrrrr.
Good post K.
Bill(cycleguy)’s last blog post..A Dangerous Church
or an alternate title . . .
“Hyper-Pharisees”
Good post, Kev. I have come to believe that “religion” can be Satan’s greatest ally when used in this manner.
Darryl’s last blog post..Love at the C-Store
Kevin,
I think I will print out this blog…make dozens of copies…I know plenty, way too many, church police…
What a great word of the Lord and for the Lord from you on this Monday morning…
Keep up the good work!
Steve
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..More Than Meets the Eyes
HOW…can so many different versions of the Lord’s gospel all be true?
This IS NOT Christ’s church. Members of HIS church would strive to be like him.
What part of all this fighting, accusing,
They would be called disciples.
The true church should carry His name shouldn’t it?
Maybe if the members of one church (building) attacks the pastor of a different church, they might persuade those members to bring their $$$ ove to their side???
So, Bill, in the mormon church, all is peaceful, no fighting, no church police?
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..More Than Meets the Eyes
Far from it Steve.
However, we do not have 5,000 versions of the gospel…or…spinoff of a spinoff of a spinoff.
So…I suppose that diminishes (to some point) the amount of bickering.
Steve…have you seen this article reported today from http://www.trunews.com which is a spinoff Baptist news organization out of Chattanooga?
By Brigid Schulte
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, June 8, 2008; Page C01
The Rev. Todd Thomason looked out at the nearly empty pews of his congregation at Baptist Temple Church last Sunday. He had preached long and hard about Abraham leaving all that he knew and setting out into an unknown future on nothing more than faith in God. He was hoping that, after the service, what was left of his flock would have the courage to do the same.
After 100 years, Baptist Temple, he feared, was dying. In its heyday in the 1950s, more than 900 members crammed into the sanctuary of the pretty white church in Alexandria that was built for 500. Now he was lucky to get 30. Perhaps the problem, he began to think, was the name itself.
“We’re probably the most progressive church in the city, but ‘Baptist Temple’ sounds weird, like it’s charismatic and conservative,” Thomason said. He worried that the word “Baptist” had become indelibly tied to the political religious right and that when combined with “Temple” it sounded like a fundamentalist “bring out the snakes” kind of place.
So after the service, Thomason would ask the remaining members of the church to save themselves, so to speak, and vote to change their name.
Like those at many Baptist and other Christian churches across the country where attendance has steadily dropped, many Baptist Temple members feel they are at a point where they must either rebrand themselves with a new name, restart as an entirely new church or limp along a few more years before quietly closing their doors.
Recent national surveys show that in an attempt to fill pews, a small but steadily growing number of Christian churches are changing their names and even their religious denominations. Wycoff Baptist in New Jersey became Cornerstone Christian Church. First Baptist in Concord, N.H., is now Centerpoint Church. The Reformed Church in America outside Detroit became Crosswinds Community Church.
Even the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant group in the country, whose 16 million membership has declined in recent years, has hosted church-naming seminars asking the question, “To Baptist or Not to Baptist?”
The convention meets this week to consider a 10-year program designed to stem the membership loss.
“The word Baptist is such a turnoff,” said David Roozen, director of the Hartford Institute for Religion Research in Connecticut, who has documented the name-changing trend. “There is a kind of national skepticism about evangelical Christianity because of the religious right and the connection to the Bush administration. You say ‘Baptist’ and people almost automatically think conservative.”
Others say it’s more about marketing. “We’re entering into a nondenominational era,” said Roger Oldham, vice president of convention relations for the Southern Baptist Convention. “One hundred years ago, when people moved to a new area, they were looking for the name brand they were accustomed to. Now, people are looking for genuineness and transparency. Not a particular label.”
Just up the street from Baptist Temple, Fair-Park Baptist Church, barely hanging on with 30 members, closed its doors a few years ago and reopened as Convergence, with a new mission to cater to area artists, with weekly seminars on “The Artist’s Way” and Sunday services at 5 p.m. in deference to musicians playing until the wee hours the night before. Membership dropped to 15 after the change, pastor Lisa Hawkins said, but has inched up to 35.
The Rev. Stephen Welch, executive director of Northstar Church Network, an association of Baptist churches in Northern Virginia, said few new churches have “Baptist” in their names. “I don’t think it’s a matter of being ashamed, but wanting to position the church where there’s less confusion about who you are and who is welcome.”
At least that’s the argument Thomason made Sunday in the church hall, just before the vote.
Thomason held up the century-old silver cup he used to celebrate Communion that day. “You know what it says?” he asked the crowd that was finishing a pizza lunch. “It says Second Baptist.” The church changed its name in 1924, he reminded them, to avoid confusion with an African American church of the same name. The world had changed, he argued. It was time to change the name with it.
Baptist Temple is the kind of place where Thomason likes to say all are welcome. There are openly gay members and activists and Hill staffers from both political parties. There are former Catholics and converted Jews. There are whites, blacks, Asians and Hispanics. In the 1990s, it was one of the first Baptist churches to break with the conservative Southern Baptist Convention when the convention decreed that women should submit to their husbands and forbade them to serve on the altar. Then Baptist Temple called a woman to serve as its head pastor.
Since October, Thomason has been meeting with small groups as they wrestle with their identity and their name. Members have argued over names such as “Fellowship of Peace” and “Rosemont Community Church.” And in one particularly painful PowerPoint session, members hashed out the pros and cons of keeping the word “Baptist.” “It’s who we are,” argued one. “There’s too much baggage,” argued another.
Sue Anderson thinks the name Baptist Temple is “kind of bizarre.” But primarily because of the “Temple” part, which was chosen because of the church’s onetime proximity to the towering George Washington Masonic Memorial. She worries it conjures images of tambourines and people speaking in tongues. But the word “Baptist?” That’s non-negotiable.
“I’m pretty proud to be a Baptist. Throughout history, Baptists have probably been among the most radical and liberal denominations of them all,” she said. “I feel bitter that the name has been hijacked by the Jerry Falwells and Tammy Faye Bakkers of the world. They shouldn’t steal my Baptist heritage from me. I want to fight for it.”
Baptists are famously among the most independent Christian denominations. There are primitive Baptists. Baptists who don’t drink or dance. Baptists who take the Bible literally. There are moderate Northern Baptists who broke with Southern churches over slavery before the Civil War. African American Baptists. Korean Baptists. And there are Baptists like Jimmy Carter and Martin Luther King Jr.
Baptists have no church hierarchy. Each church is supremely autonomous and self-supporting. And all people, they believe, have not only the freedom but the responsibility to interpret the Bible as it speaks to them and to seek God on their own terms. But in recent years, the world has come to equate all Baptists with only the denomination’s most conservative branch.
“When you have to spend your time in explain-and-defend mode, saying, ‘I’m not one of those Baptists,’ it gets in the way of explaining who you are,” said Pat Eddington, a Baptist Temple member who’s been pushing for the name change. “A lot of people see us as surrendering to the Southern Baptist Convention. To me, the difference is, they’ve already won.”
In its 100 years, Baptist Temple has survived a lot: two moves, floods, a fire, a secretary who ran off with the collection money and a pastor’s wife who ran off with the chairman of the deacons. But perhaps the biggest crisis is this: In recent years, as the old guard has faded into nursing homes or died, only one new person has joined the church. And like many newer members, Gayle Reuter said she joined in spite of the name. “I never dreamed it was progressive,” she said.
Reuter joined because of the people, she said, and because of the good works the church does. She doesn’t really care about the name. “But I’m concerned that if people don’t come inside in the first place, because of the name, we may not be able to continue,” she said. “If there’s a chance that we won’t make it, then the name could be really critical.”
With lunch finished, it was time to vote. Yellow ballots and pencils made their way around the room. Three members disappeared into another room to count. Church bylaws require a majority vote of two-thirds of the 37 members present.
Helen and Sam Dickens had already decided to vote no. They joined the church in 1945 as young newlyweds and remember week-long revivals, songfests, crowded church suppers and the days of five choirs and lively softball, bowling and basketball teams. They love the name Baptist Temple. “It’s worked all these years; why change it?” Helen lamented before the vote.
In minutes, the counting committee returned with the results. Ten voted to keep name. One abstained. And 26 members, just 1.4 votes more the majority required, won the day. Baptist Temple will henceforth be known as “Commonwealth Baptist Church.”
In the end, members compromised. They changed their name but could not leave their Baptist roots behind. Instead, they’ll add a tagline, something that explains their kind of Baptist, such as “A Progressive Community of Faith.”
As people filed out, Thomason breathed a sigh of relief. Changing the name is no magic bullet. “It’s not like we change the name and next Sunday 200 people will be at worship,” he said. But it’s a start. Although he won’t be around to see it.
Thomason, who became pastor in 2004, got caught up in the church’s struggle for identity and survival. Some blamed him, not just the name, for failing to bring in new people and asked him to resign. He preached his last on Sunday. Then he, too, like the newly named church, like Abraham, will step out into an unknown future, on nothing more than faith.
Yes…I saw this article, since you have posted it already. Bill, you sure know how to cut and paste, I’ll give you that!
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..More Than Meets the Eyes
I am not sure what those two are talking about but the ‘cut and paste’ thing is hilarious. You are exactly right on this post. Too many people are more concerned with making sure everyone lines up with what they believe. I am with you on Rick, I would say that some of his approaches do not appeal to me but that is a matter of taste, not doctrine. What separates many of us and Rick is not doctrine it is preference. Well preference and God’s blessing, not to mention success. Doctrines are what separate us from, oh say the Mormons and others like them. Those are issues we should disagree on and stand on, preference we should embrace and encourage.
Keep up the good work friend. It doesn’t sound like you are the one being attacked but if you are remember that God has people in your city. The way I look at it is the way I look at this whole Emergent-Establishment debate. Those on the Establishment side can gripe and complain all they want to but they will eventually ‘loose’. Have a good day.
Thanks Steve.
Steve…what about this one???
SOUTHERN BAPTIST PASTOR: JESUS IS THE “FOUNDER OF LIBERALISM”
By Paul Proctor
May 2, 2007
NewsWithViews.com
A reader sent me an amazing article over the weekend from the Religion section of The Decatur Daily titled “An emerging Christianity is reshaping faith.” It was written by the pastor of a Southern Baptist church in Auburn Alabama, who just happens to be a syndicated columnist, as well. His name is James L. Evans.
Addressing the Emergent Church movement, as if to be introducing it to the general public for the first time, he wrote the following:
Even now a new form of the faith seems to be taking hold within the broad tradition of evangelicalism. Calling themselves “emerging Christians,” or in some instances “the Emergent Church,” a movement of mostly younger believers are re-shaping the traditional faith in ways that is creating excitement among some, and deep worry among more established Christian leaders.
“Reshaping the traditional faith?”
Isn’t that a little like reshaping an old clay pot into an ashtray? Just how does one do that? Since you can’t remold hardened pottery into something else, it seems to me the only course of action is to smash it and then set your smoldering stogy on one of the broken pieces.
Does that mean it’s still an earthen vessel? - I’d say about as much as the Emergent Church is a “traditional faith.” Oh, you can call it an “earthen vessel” if you like - but it’s really just an ashtray, isn’t it?
In my view, the only thing that has been “reshaped” here is rebellion - a rebellion that is wreaking havoc in the Church today - something our Decatur Daily pastor/columnist didn’t bring up - even though many have written about it, including yours truly in a recent piece called “The Emerging Civil War.” Or, could this be what the good reverend meant when he wrote that the movement was “creating excitement?”
Isn’t positivism refreshing?
I thought it was cute the way he casually explained the Emerging Church movement in the third person - as if he was just an objective observer reporting on an ecclesiastical trend that he happened to be privy to but wasn’t actually a part of himself.
You see, if you visit Pastor Evans’ own church website, you’ll see, hidden in plain sight, right there in the big fat middle of an otherwise traditional looking church homepage, pictured beneath the words “A Journey in Faith,” an occult symbol and prayer device commonly associated with Eastern Mysticism and the Emergent Church, called a Labyrinth.
My guess is, the older, more traditionally-minded members of his church have no idea what a Labyrinth is - where it originated - what it represents or what it means to the future of Auburn Alabama’s First Baptist Church. But then, that’s the way change agents work among the flock today - in stealth - below the radar, if you will - publicly appearing to represent one thing while covertly promoting another.
In the Decatur Daily article, Evans proceeds to quote Scott McKnight, a Northpark Seminary professor from Chicago who describes the Emerging Church this way:
“Emerging churches are communities that practice the way of Jesus within postmodern cultures. This definition encompasses nine practices. Emerging churches identify with the life of Jesus, transform the secular realm, live highly communal lives, they welcome the stranger, serve with generosity, participate as producers, create as created beings, lead as a body, and take part in spiritual activities.”
“Practice the way of Jesus?” What’s that suppose to mean?
As for his nine Emergent Church practices:
1. We are not called to “identify with the life of Jesus.” We are called to repent and believe the Gospel. The former is ambiguous, esoteric and misleading. The latter is biblical. (Acts 3:19 - Mark 1:15)
2. We are not commissioned to “transform the secular realm.” We are called to preach the Word in season and out, whether secular society hears it and accepts it or not. (2nd Timothy 4:2)
3. We are not commanded to “live highly communal lives.” Communes are where socialism and consensus are preached and practiced and where hippies and flower children were known to hang out back in the 60s. Where do you think the term “communism” comes from? Faith in Christ is not about following a group or going along to get along, but rather about obeying God and proclaiming His Word even if no one else around you will. (2nd John 1:9-11)
4. “To welcome the stranger” does not mean we are to fellowship with unrighteousness and “unequally yoke” ourselves to unbelievers. (Ephesians 5:11, 2nd Corinthians 6:14)
5. “Serving with generosity” is not an acceptable replacement for knowing, believing and obeying the absolute truth of God’s Word - something the Emergent Church has a real problem with. (Ephesians 2:8-9, Luke 6:46)
6. Nowhere in scripture is the Christian encouraged or expected to “produce” anything. The Holy Spirit does the “producing,” which may or may not involve my participation in a commune. (1st Corinthians 3:7)
7. Nowhere in scripture is the Christian commanded to “create” anything, but only obey the Word of God. It is He that does the creating and, in spite of the Emerging Church’s contemplative quest to discover “God within,” the Christian is not the Divine. (John 1:1-4)
8. Jesus did not tell Christians to “lead as a body,” but instead to take up their cross and follow Him. You cannot lead and follow at the same time. Those who think they can, are the same people who think they are God. (Matthew 10:38, Matthew 16:24, Mark 8:34, Mark 10:21, Luke 9:23)
9. Witches, Satanists, New Agers, demons and devils regularly “take part in spiritual activities” - that doesn’t make them biblical or even Christian. (1st John 4:1)
Nevertheless, the pastor continues with this:
…one of the central concerns of the emergent Christian movement is the desire for their faith community to be all-inclusive - to welcome the stranger.
First of all, the “central concern” of any Christian, pastor or church, especially in this day and time, should be our innate propensity, both individually and collectively, to stray from God’s Word - to run after every “wind of doctrine” that comes along (Ephesians 4:14) - not a “desire for their faith community to be all-inclusive.” There is no biblical mandate to be “all-inclusive.” That ludicrous notion is the demonic doctrine of new age liberals masquerading as Christians - trying to get everyone onboard the U.N.’s peace train to a humanistic heaven on Earth.
He goes on to say:
This concern has resulted in high tolerance for people of other faiths. Emergent Christians have serious doubts about doctrinal ideas which hold that some are in and some are out - that is in or out with God.
Is the re-shaped reverend suggesting here that the Emergent Church embraces universalism? And, if so, does that mean he too embraces it? Or is he still in the closet? Oh, I forgot - he’s just conveying information impartially, like any good journalist. One thing’s for sure - he certainly isn’t speaking out against the Emergent Church - at least not in this article. But isn’t rightly dividing the Word of God his first responsibility as a preacher of the Gospel?
Another agenda maybe?
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” - Matthew 7:21-23
As if that wasn’t enough, Evans adds absurdity to absurdity:
This means, of course, that emerging Christians are not very evangelistic - at least in the traditional sense. For the most part we will not find them trying to convert people from one faith to another or from no faith to their faith.
So, Emergents might “transform the secular realm” - but don’t expect them to “convert people from one faith to another or from no faith to their faith,” even if they’re Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Moonies, Wiccans, Satanists, atheists or agnostics, huh? Just bring ‘em all in, light the candles and let the good times roll - is that it?
The U.N. folks will love that.
What about Jesus saying: “he that gathereth not with me scattereth?”
I guess “practicing the way of Jesus” isn’t really all it’s cracked up to be - biblically speaking.
Still, Evans continues:
Emergent Christians also tend toward a more liberal social view. They are concerned about the poor and about the environment. The emphasis here for emergent Christians is on serving and being generous. They think it is more important to live and act in faithful ways rather than obsessing about what we should believe. This concern for people and the world is not a stance related to any political party. For emerging Christians, caring about people in this world is their mission in life.
Well, if that’s true, then I guess Angelina Jolie, Brad Pitt, Al Gore, Rupert Murdock, Bill Gates, Simon Cowell, Ted Kennedy, Ted Turner, Sheryl Crow and Madonna are all Emergent Christians.
If this pastor is not immediately removed from the pulpit of Auburn First Baptist Church, then AFBC ought to be removed from the Southern Baptist Convention.
But, you know what? He’s not going anywhere - and neither is AFBC.
You know why?
Because you can go to the Southern Baptist Convention’s LifeWay Christian Stores online or to any of their walk-in bookstores nationwide and find a wide array of books promoting the Emerging Church and Contemplative Spirituality. If you find that hard to believe, just go to the website of Christian Research Service, click on their Master List, scroll down to the section subtitled: “CENTERING PRAYER/CONTEMPLATIVE SPIRITUALITY/EMERGING CHURCH/CHURCH GROWTH/MYSTICISM/PURPOSE DRIVEN” and then enter the names of the authors listed there into the search engine of LifeWay Christian Stores, beginning with the name “Ruth Haley Barton,” and you’ll know why.
This is not just a James Evans problem. It’s not just an Auburn First Baptist Church problem either. It’s not even a Southern Baptist Convention-only problem.
This is a global spiritual catastrophe in the making and very few from today’s Church are even aware of it, much less are speaking out against it.
“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.” - 1st Timothy 6:3-5
Bill,
Do you even know what the Emerging Church movement really is?
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..naked man claiming to be Jesus Christ and George Bush
Kevin,
The emerging church is a movement which began in the late 20th century to reach people who hav never heard of Jesus Christ. Another name (or lead up is the charismatic movement)…where just about anything goes.
It is a wonderful thought, and I certainly DO NOT criticize those who genuinely desire to save souls. There MUST be ways to overcome satan’s trickery whereas souls can be taught gospel truths and sound doctrine.
The term emerging church, looks for new ways to reach those people, and that in itself may be where the problem begins
As you know Kevin, Jesus is “the ROCK OF AGES.” He is immoveable.
I have a dear friend who is the youth minister of a very large Baptist church. Last year, they took the youth to Cancun for a one (1) week summer retreat. It was not a missionary trip…just a trip for fun. What kid (you and I included when we were younger) would not want to go to the Caribbean…and do you know what types of things happen there???
Some churches have live rock (hard rock) concerts. What would Jesus think if He walked into one of those concerts where kids are jumping up and down, dancing in filthy poses? It looks no different than a regular concert…except the words to songs may be different…if one can even understand them. I remember when I was a member of a Baptist church, that dancing was not allowed. Now…they have gone 180 degrees.
They hold sleepovers where there are all night video game contests. Some of those games are nothing but filth.
So yes…I am very aware of that movement, and how satan can use his deceit, carnality, and sensual and devilish tricks to lure people into a church. BUT,,,what do you do with them once the fun wears off??????
What happened to the message of an atoning sacrafice?
I know you are not guilty of this, but there are preachers (and governing bodies in some churches) that ONLY see increased membership as increased income for their mortgages and programs…many of which have little to do woth WHY we are really supposed to be coming to church in the first place.
Jesus often stated that His sheep would hear his voice. I
Bill,
You know what I think Jesus would say to kids jumping & praising God? Good! I’m glad my people are adapting their methods without changing the message! That is what I think. We play that kind of music at the church I’m at now. In fact I play guitar.
Let’s see…Kevin, attending the kind of worship you have described vs. the kind of worship Bill described, I’m trying to decide which one I prefer…hmmm…doesn’t take long to decide that! I’ll take the loud, rock-music style, with kids jumping up and down, spending the entire night at church, or going to Cancun for a week of fun in the sun. Give me that old time rock and roll for Jesus music!
If Jesus were to walk in to such activity, I think He might just volunteer to play bass…or take on the winner of the video game! But then again, as the Creator of the Universe, He’d probably have an unfair advantage! And be awesome at Guitar Hero!
Where were these youth ministers and worship leaders when I was younger! Sure is different than Kum-by-yah by the campfire…
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..More Than Meets the Eyes
Kevin, I must commend you for allowing Bill the Mormon to continually hijack posts with his insistence on cutting and pasting long posts from other authors. You are a better person than I am.
As for rock music, I think Larry Norman said it best “Why should the devil have all the good music?”
Is Amy Grant a satanist? Absolutely NOT!
But there is a definite spirit invoked in rock music, secular or Christian — and it’s NOT the Holy Spirit! And many times, people involved in rock music get “caught up in this unholy spirit”!
During a 1993 Ophrah Winfrey interview, Michael Jackson, explained the reason for some of his fithly sexual gestures during his concerts:
“It happens subliminally. IT’S THE MUSIC THAT COMPELS ME TO DO IT. You don’t think about it, it just happens. I’M SLAVE TO THE RHYTHM.”
(The Evening Star, Feb. 11, 1993, p. A10)
It’s NOT the lyrics! It’s the MUSIC!
How can the Holy Spirit of the Bible use fleshly music!
“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these ARE CONTRARY THE ONE TO THE OTHER: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.”
Galatians 5:17
Bill, you sure seem to lump everything together…all Baptist preachers are liars, all rock-style music is of satan; and all TN vols play within the rules and are champions…
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..More Than Meets the Eyes
Bill,
I’m not a fan of Oprah or MJ. We don’t have sexually charged lyrics or moves when we worship. There is some swaying, clapping and some hands raised. That is about as wild as it gets. Except when I raise the lighter and yell “FREEBIRD!”
Kevin, you really need to let your hair grow…so that you can really shake it as you play…but, keep the hair away from the lighter!
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..More Than Meets the Eyes
Steve,
I am only suggesting that it would be an interesting study, to learn what the retention rate is for these kids…as far as remaining true to the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ as they enter into adult life.
One must wonder if this activity leads to Baptism’s, or is it a simple way to keep membership aka a money stream coming in? That’s all.
By the way, your parents must have done something right in sending you (my parents did also) to kum-ba-yah camp fire meetings
Kevin,
I love it. That’s funny. One of my favorite groups was Lynnard Skinnard!
By the way…I am not an MJ or OW fan either.
Bill, my parents didn’t send me…I freely went to those.
Let me ask you Bill…how much money does the LDS bring in in a year? I mean overall.
The reason I ask, everything you mention about Baptist allude to the raking in of a money stream.
How about the mormons…totals for the year?
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..More Than Meets the Eyes
Stece,
We have NO PAID MINISTRY, as outlined in…
1 Corinthians 9: 16-18
Acts 20: 33-35
John 10: 11-13.
The members pay 10% of any gain (which really comes from the Lord in the first place) to build up the His kingdom on earth..
One of the blessings of membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the privilege of paying tithing. This privilege is a double blessing. By paying tithing, Church members show their gratitude to God for their blessings and their resolve to trust in the Lord rather than in material things. They also help further the work of the Lord in the earth, blessing others of God’s children with the opportunity to learn of Him and to grow in the gospel.
Through the prophet Malachi, the Lord declared:
“Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it” (Malachi 3:10).
Bill, once again, you didn’t answer a question when asked. I said nothing about a paid ministry. How much does LDS rake in in a year?
I’m sure you can cut and paste that information…
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..More Than Meets the Eyes
Wikipedi says this:
Time Magazine estimated in 1996 that the church’s assets exceeded $30 billion.[1] This figure represents only one side of the balance sheet and does not include current liabilities for maintenance, although the church incurs virtually no long-term liabilites.[9] After the Time article was published, the church responded that the financial figures in the article were “grossly exaggerated.”[21] Three years later, annual revenues were estimated to be $5 billion, with total assets at $25 to $30 billion.
I also see that the church has not released its finances since 1959.
At least us money-grabbing Baptists make it public reaction. What’s to hide in the LDS?
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..More Than Meets the Eyes
Well, first your term “rake in” would not apply.
Secondly, the church headquarters has no obligation to share with me how much 13 million members worldwide pay (a commandment in your Bible) in tithing.
Steve, I’ve got to run now. One thing though. We love babies…and your son (I saw your site tonight) is beautiful. Congratulations to you and your lovely wife!!! I’ll bet he’ll play for Auburn
Steve,
I was about to leave, when I saw that you had made one more post.
In actuality, your comment about “at least we money-grabbing Baptists make it public” may NOT be exactly true.
It seems that Baptists have difficulties in reporting to each other…much less to the public…as brought out in the article below:
Aug
07Weekend Preview
Topic: SBC News| Written by: News Information| This coming weekend, I will publish an analysis of the various responses I received to my written request of each Southern Baptist Convention entity receiving Cooperative Program support. In that letter, I invoked Section XIV of the SBC Business and Financial Plan, which states:
Members of cooperating Southern Baptist churches shall have access to information from the records of Southern Baptist Convention entities regarding income, expenditures, debts, reserves, operating balances, and salary structures.
My original letter, dated January 16, 2007, can be found here.
A second, follow-up letter was sent to the noncompliant entity executives on April 3, 2007, and can be found here.
A final, more direct letter was sent to the ultimately noncompliant entities in late June. That letter reads as follows:
Dr. Phil Roberts
Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary
Dr. Charles Kelley
New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary
Dr. Paige Patterson
Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary
Dr. Geoffrey Hammond
North American Mission Board
Dear Sirs:
I have now sent three letters to each seminary president listed and two to NAMB invoking my privilege as a member of a cooperating Southern Baptist Church to “have access to information from the records of Southern Baptist Convention entities regarding income, expenditures, debts, reserves, operating balances, and salary structures. To date, I have received responses from every president included in my original request, dated January 16, 2007, except the four of you.
Your unwillingness to respond to my request in a timely manner is indicative of contemptuous resistance to comply with the authority of the Southern Baptist Convention. Your delay is reprehensible, and if presidents of Southern Baptist agencies are unwilling to recognize the controlling documents adopted by the convention, you are in violation of the sacred trust charged to you by the same.
I am requesting, once again, that you provide me with the list of enumerated items included in my original letter. The potential embarrassment that your continued impudence could bring to your respective institutions is inestimable.
Resolved,
Benjamin S. Cole
Leave it to a Mormon to bring Ben Cole into the equation. Bill, I know Ben & he is trying to bring reform.
Could some of the confusion earlier in these comments be a failure to really distinguish between the tems “emerging” church and “emergent” church? This article sums up pretty well what I have understood about the two movements.
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/1645/Jason_Carlson
Andi,
Thanks for that link. I like the way he outlines it. I always expect great indight from a Bama grad & former Campus Lifer!
Kevin,
I do not know Brother Cole. It does seem (you are correct) that he is trying to bring back a sound doctrine where there is some sort of order, I was just bantering with Steve…whom I also admire as I do you.
It’s certainly not for me to judge …and about my comment concerning rock music………..
I was referring to the gang which is aligned with Jim Bakker’s son. To me, that head banging, mosh pit (is that what they call it), loud and obnoxious music does not delight my heart like the Gaithers, Mercyme, Twila Paris, Michael English….of course…you have to understand that I am 53, while you are just a youngster ha/ha.
Maybe the senility is setting in and so, I’m just a traditional old fashioned cornball
Bill, maybe a difference in the mormon church and Baptist church is simply this. I know how much my church “takes in” a month. Many of the churches I served in the past even printed their weekly offering. So, I would say that most Baptists know the income and expenses of their church.
I completely disagree with you about the fact that you believe your headquarters has no responsibility to report out its income and expenses. Why not? Why do they withhold that information? What would the local member think of the expenses of the church?
The more I read your posts, I believe you are still secretly a Baptist at heart–since you read so many articles about us, and even quote Brother Ben Cole.
Come on Bill, admit it! You are a Baptist and a secret supporter of the University of Alabama. Roll Tide, Bill, Roll Tide.
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..More Than Meets the Eyes
Yep Steve…you hav finally caught me.
I only went to the Latter Day Saint Church out of a true need to learn less than I did at the Baptist church in Nashville.
And it is true that while I own U.T. season tickets, I am really a spy for old Saint Nick Saban. Gee how I miss Alabama.
It is a beautiful state…that is the part that touches the gulf, and the part that touches T-E-N-N-E-S-S-E-E that is
Bottom line is this…I AM SAVED…no matter what spin is put on it!
Kevin,
I could write LIBRARIES about my experiences with the “church police.”
And most of the “critics” are pretty shaky in their experience with the Lord, anyway…so they want to criticize mine…
Phil Hoover’s last blog post..My heart is aching….
Since it is a political year….
I know Rick Warren.
Rick Warren is a friend of mine.
Rick Warren, he is no Jim Jones :-).
Worse was said of Whitefield in his day and Spurgeon as well. As Rick himself once said, the pioneers are the ones who get the arrows.
Alvin Reid’s last blog post..Sunday (make that Tuesday) is for Students
Bad boys
bad boys
what you going to do
what you going to do
when they come for you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXQB_5M9bHM
Quinn Hooks’s last blog post..Obama being sued
Hey… what do you do about the church police, police…(those guys who think it is their responsibility to police the church police)…
Just pokin at you Kevin… great post…
There is a place for admonishment and correction, and a place for grace… but there is always a place for the gospel…we all need to grow in that every day!
Avery’s last blog post..Got my braces off today?