May 28 2008
Habitat for Humanity Criticized for Planned Parenthood Partnership
The nation’s largest Christian ministry dedicated to housing the poor has drawn criticism from pro-life groups recently over its joint partnership with the nation’s largest provider of surgical abortions.
In an agreement with Planned Parenthood, Habitat for Humanity is allowing the group to bypass zoning regulations in Sarasota, Fla., that restrict the opening of abortion facilities “without the presence of a multifamily liner building.”
According to a statement released earlier this month by the Sarasota City Commission, Habitat for Humanity will reportedly facilitate the opening of Planned Parenthood in the area through a $10 real estate purchase from the group.
“We are excited to have Habitat be a part of the Planned Parenthood team,” a Planned Parenthood representative reportedly said after the agreement.
Jim Sedlak, vice-president of the American Life League, in response, blasted the move by Habitat for Humanity.
“Habitat for Humanity, which claims to be a Christian ministry, says that this was only a real estate transaction. However, Planned Parenthood could not open its abortion facility without Habitat’s help,” he explained in a statement.
Read more here.
Read the minutes from the City Council here. (it is on page 10 #120
[From me]
$10? It is bad enough that a “Christian” organization would sell to a baby killing organization like PP, but for $10? Don’t tell me it was a business transaction. If I had land and PP offered me 10X the amount I wouldn’t sell just because I wouldn’t want to sell to an organization that is in the baby killing business! I’ve always admired Habitat for Humanity but this is sad and disappointing.
What do you think?
75 responses so far
They shouldn’t have sold it at any price. PP is ghoulish and should not be supported by tax dollars or discounted deals like this. We need to make it harder to kill the unborn, not easier.
Neil’s last blog post..Evangelism experiences 1
I guess I just don’t understand, but this seems VERY wrong.
Thanks for sounding the alarm Kevin. Ezekiel 33:6 (CEV) says, “The enemy will attack and kill some of the sinful people in that country, and I, the Lord, will hold that person responsible for their death.”
As believers, we have a responsibilty for sounding the alarm, for watching out for the evil one, and for taking a stand against him.
HH should have known better!
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..The Oprah Slide
The question should be…
What are Gadianton Robbers and Secret Combinations???
This WILL explain it in vivid detail!
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=9caa8c6a47e0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1
Bill,
What in the world led to this comment, in this thread? Did I miss something?
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..The Oprah Slide
Steve,
This is par for the course for Bill the Mormon!
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Habitat for Humanity Criticized for Planned Parenthood Partnership
Your article here, is about those who align themselves to carry out wicked purposes,,,all of course…for financial gain or power.
Are either of you men able to see that in these last days, satan is aligning his forces of darkness to battle with Jeuss Christ’s forces of life, light, and truth???
Tobacco companies own stock in the cancer industry!
Manufacturers of corn syrup (the fattening of America) have bought stock in the Diabetes Industry Pharmaceuticals!
Habitat for Humanity (for the preservation of life) now aligning themselves with abortinoists (the taker of life).
War industries (profiteers) own stock in reconstruction fiirms, security firms, hospital firms etc. who are rebuilding war ravaged areas like Baghdad.
So…go ahead and make fun of me if you choose, but I KNOW of that which am speaking of
Kevin the Baptist
Speaking of Habitat For Humanity & Planned Parenthood…here’s one for you to ponder.
How about The Secretary of Defense and Aspartame???
Read about it here:
http://www.newswithviews.com/NWVexclusive/exclusive15.htm
Bill,
I may serve in a Baptist Church but I’m a follower of Jesus Christ 1st. I’m not hung up about denominations.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Habitat for Humanity Criticized for Planned Parenthood Partnership
Bill…I didn’t see where any one made fun of you. I asked a simple question, because I did not see the connection to the thread. It was that simple.
As for the last days, well could be. However, Jesus (please note the spelling) said that we do not know the day or hour…but to watch.
I’m watching…but leaving His return to Him and the Father!
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..The Oprah Slide
Kevin,
If you are not hung up about denominations, then WHY do you refer to me as Bill the Mormon? I haven’t noticed that you refer to the other bloggers by their chosen denomination????
Steve,
You are right. No one knows the day of the return of our Savior Jesus Christ…however…we MUST be aware of those signs. Satan is running out of time, and has set himself in overdrive to destroy as many of God’s creations as possible.
He will use every wicked combination to push his agenda.
It’s really down to 2 camps now…wouldn’t you agree??
In one camp you have deceit, destruction and abomination…lovers of death.
In the other camp, are those lrs ofove Jesus Christ who look to the light & truth.
They are lovers of life eternal.
Bill,
Why? Because the LDS are not a denomination. You are a cult. According to Jesus there is only one way to heaven and that is through him. Your religion is works based. Jesus said we can’t work our way to heaven it is a gift.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Habitat for Humanity Criticized for Planned Parenthood Partnership
Bill,
There are two groups, those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord (and nothing else), and then there is everyone else. Period.
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..The Oprah Slide
Kevin,
Funny that you are having this conversation with Bill. I had the same talk with two young men in black pants and white shirts last night. We talked for about an hour and I think they left my house very frustrated. I talked to them repeatedly about grace and the sacrifice of Christ’s blood being sufficient for our sins. All they wanted to talk about was “the true prophet” and the “true church.” Mormonism is not just another demonination. It is a pernicious cult.
Kevin and Harold M,
How would you define a cult?
M. Steve Heartsill,
LDS’s would belong in the group who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ. Besides, there are really three kinds of people in this world: those who can count and those who can’t.
Sorry A3, but I disagree…you missed the most important part of my sentence (and nothing else)…LDS’s can’t make that claim…well, they can make that claim, but that claim would not be true.
And, I do like your three kinds of people…
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..The Oprah Slide
I would define a cult as a group that takes Christianity and distorts it. LDS are not Christians. They are good people and live clean lives but according to the Bible none of us is good enough to enter heaven.
Jesus paid our penalty on a cross for our sins.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Habitat for Humanity Criticized for Planned Parenthood Partnership
Kevin,
Kevin, since you are a biblical scholar, which Heaven are you referring to?
Are you referring to the Celestial Kingdom…OR…Terrestrial Kingdom as spoken in Corinthians:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_cor/15/40#40
Which kingdom are you leading your flock to???
Are they aware that they ARE NOT receiving a fullness of the gospel?
Are they aware that the gospel of Jesus Christ is FREE to all who will read it, although there are pastors still begging for for upkeep, while thousands cannot afford to make their own mortgage payments?
The scriptures really teach AGAINST PAID MINISTRY…as in:
ISAIAH 45:13 & 1 PETER 5:2
Oh…and by the way, Merriam Webster defines a “CULT” as formal reilgion. Further, it defines a “CULT” as a group who worships a divine being. See for yourself here:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult
So Houston…we have a problem now don’t we?
So since you have opened this can of worms, can you explain the following?.
ACVORDING TO JESUS…
We KNOW that Jesus Christ sits at the head of our church:
EPHESIANS 5:23
We KNOW that the church MUST HAVE a foundation of Apostles & Prophets:
EHESIANS 2: 19-20
WE KNOW that the church MUST bestow the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands:
ACTS 8: 14-17
We KNOW the church MUST claim Divine Authority:
HEBREWS 5: 4-10
We KNOW that God and Jesus Christ have bodies of flesh and bone:
LUKE 24: 36-39 ACTS 1: 9-11
We KNOW the church MUST BE a restored church:
ACTS 3: 19-20
Now of course, there is more, but I must go.
But before I do, who was it who founded your denomination???
Thanks!
Bill
Bill,
The Book of Mormon was plagiarized from the KJV of the Bible. Baptists go back from the time of Ana-baptists. There are some misguided people who say Baptists go back to John the Baptist but I think that is bad scholarship.
I don’t get caught up in denominations. Our church is loosely affiliated with the SBC. We give money to missions so that makes us SBC. We support our missionaries.
I could care less about denominations. I care about personal relationships with Jesus Christ. Not some burning in my bosom. Being a follower of Jesus is about accepting His “FREE GIFT” and Grace!
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Habitat for Humanity Criticized for Planned Parenthood Partnership
Who would have thought a post about aiding abortions would be derailed?
I did look at the long article, not the city notes. I really do wonder what it the motivation of Habitat for this venture. Are the staff mistaken and really believe Planned Parenthood is a good partnership –perhaps bring less families in need? That is the only thing I can phathom them believing.
~Janna “the unbaptist Baptist”
Janna,
Great point.
BTW,
I see on my statcounter that someone from Habitat is on my blog now. They are probably loving Bill’s hy-jack.
Kevin “the para-church guy”
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Habitat for Humanity Criticized for Planned Parenthood Partnership
Back on topic! What does light have to do with the darkness! HofH partnering with PP once again shows it drift from its Christian beginnings. This is a horrible plan and will have terrible consequences.
Quinn Hooks’s last blog post..If Life is a highway?
Kevin,
My point exactly. Your “definition” of “cult” is simply how you feel about the LDS church, it is by no means any acceptable definition of the word. The term “cult” has nothing to do with Christianity at all; it simply refers to a cohesive social group devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture considers outside the mainstream. There are plenty of cults that did not originate from Christian culture and have nothing to do with Christianity. On the other hand, Christianity itself was a Jewish cult when it first appeared and was only considered an established religion a few hundred years later.
So why not use your personal, made-up definition? You are certainly welcome to if you don’t care to communicate effectively. For example, I might define Fundamentalists as a group of delusional adherents. My definition might even gain me a following (albeit, a somewhat unsophisticated following) of those who are eager to vilify fundamentalism. However, it precludes any discussion about why fundamentalists are delusional, based on the accepted meaning of “fundamentalism” and “delusion.”
I’ll bet Bill feels the same way about your “definition” as you feel about my “definition.” Then not only have you failed to make any real case that the LDS is a cult, you’ve potentially alienated LDS’s so that even if you are right, that LDS is a cult, you’ve lessened your chances of communicating the fact. That should be more troubling to you that it is to me since, presumably to you, it means you have reduced your chances of “saving” (in quotes because LDS’s believe as strongly that they are saved as you believe that you are) Bill or any other LDS’s of whom you are unaware that may read your blog.
A3,
The LDS base their religion on a book that was plagiarized by Joseph Smith from the KJV of the Bible. There is no archeological evidence that any LDS documents came from before the 1800’s.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Good for the ACLU!
Kevin, you scholar you. I am very impressed with your consistent answers to Bill the Mormon…or is that Bill the LDS. Anyway, I digress. Thanks for your consistent witness, answers, and reminding all readers of the truth of gospel of Jesus Christ, not a distorted view of a man.
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..Jesus is Lord!
Kevin,
That’s nice…
Now back to our discussion: what do you think about my point that redefining words like “cult” are detrimental to effective communication and can even undermine your witness?
Kevin this might not help things to stay on track but, you know what Bill, you can’t hitchike your way to heaven, by being good. That is the biggest difference between Christianity and all other world religions: We admit we can’t be good enough to attain heaven, and need a Savior.
There is also no “new revelation” from heaven because God would have to contradict His own previously revealed word to do so. Even a revelation from an angel, such as what your religion’s Joseph Smith claimed to receive from the angel Moroni, even violates a previous direct statement of God’s Holy Word.
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Galatians 1:6-9
If a CULT is a cohesive social group devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture considers outside the mainstream. Then with your beliefs are such a departure from mainstream Christianity, could you by your own definition, NOT consider mormonism a cult?
Love, Grace and not rules are your only hope to make it to heaven. You can’t be good enough. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. It’s a gift for you.
Andrew
Dozer,
I’m not sure if this is what you meant or not - were you saying that the Gal 1:6-9 passage means that there can be no further revelation from God or his angels?
Kevin:
Maybe its time to open up a posting on LDS - to which I agree with you that it is a cult.
I also agree that we are Chritians long before we are Baptists (I attend a Baptist church because their understanding of biblical principle aligns with my understanding more closely than other denominations).
So back to the topic at hand…and thats PP, who killed 1.2 million babies in 2005 (latest number I could find) and who recieved nealry 300 million dollars in our tax monies to do it.
I volunteer and lead a team with Habitat. Its not Sarasota Habitat, but Habitat nonetheless.
You know some of the stuff I do with adult addicts, abused children, etc. I find Habitat easy to work with as I can get members from church to show up as well as unchurched non beleivers working on the same homes at the same time, which I find powerful.
Its easier to get people to drive nails rather than face a child who has gotten the snot beat out of him (or worse) by a drug addicted parent, which I totally get.
Where would you stand if you were I, with Habitat and future involvement??
Blessings
Bret,
I’ve done several posts on the LDS & they get the most comments. Check out the top posts above.
As far as working w/ Habitat. I think they are a great organization that made a mistake. The main office in GA has been on my blog all week reading the comments. I would imagine they realize they messed up. I hope they change their minds because what they do is being the hands & feet of Jesus.
No one on this site who slams the Latter Day Saints have a clue about what we believe.
We DO believe that the atonement of Jesus Christ, makes it possible for all to be saved. There is NO other way under Heaven for man to return to live with his/her Heavenly Father again period…except by the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ.
Mormons are Christians. We worship Jesus Christ.
We are the ONLY church named THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS. Did you get that…JESUS CHRIST!
WHY are your churches named other names, if Jesus Christ is who you worship and serve?
The big $$$ preachers on this site are quaking in their boots, because they know their payday is coming to an end. When people are forced to make their mortgage…or…pay their preacher, they will choose the latter. When that happens, we will have to see which churches are left standing. Jesus promised that in these last days, he would uncover the lies that have held men in spiritual bondage.
1 Peter 5:2 and Isaiah 45:13 both say NO PAID MINISTRY. Yet the gospel giants on this site brush right over those gospel truths because it scares them!
Likewise, those on this site who claim to be the “real deal” and have a crystal ball thus enabling them to look into my heart cannot even explain their own beliefs. For instance, how many times have I asked anyone on here to describe the three (2) degrees of glory (Celestial…Terrestrial) which is covered in 1 Corinthians 15:4???
Come on you men of genius…are you afraid to tell me what that means???
Are you afraid that your members might learn that you have taught only a partial truth???
Do you know that we believe that it is the grace which saves us…but…we also believe that if we truly love Jesus Christ, there is more we must do. Lip service is dead. You cannot sit on the front row of your church on Sunday morning…claiming to be a follower of Jesus Christ, and drink, smoke, gossip, raise hell and hurt others the rest of the week…and still expect that your reward (see James 2: 20 & 26) to be the same as those who desire to serve HIM in a much deeper way!
Don’t you all know that there are MANY MANSIONS in Gods house? See John 14:2. Are you simple enough to think that everyone will go to the same place…when the TRUE GOSPEL clearly teaches different.
If you are on this site tonight, you DO NOT have to follow the popular crowd. Your eternity is more important. Look it up for yourselves. There are false teachers among you as described in 1 Peter 2:1.
And if you buy into the falsehoods about Mormons on this site, simply seek truth through prayer, and ask God to manifest the truth to you by the power of the Holy Ghost. Don’t be sheeple. Quit being led by the nose and begin to think for yourselves. The link below, IS the doctrine of (Mormons/Christians) Latter Day Saints. There is no denying…we are not ashamed to tell it.
http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/
There 500+ quote christian denominations out there. Do any of you believe that they are all true?
Bill,
According to your beliefs is there anything else besides God’s grace that a person must do to obtain eternal life.
Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23, ” Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!” (NKJV).
Becoming a Christian does not mean belonging to a church, doing good things, or simply believing in God. Being a Christian means that you have trusted in the true God for salvation, in the True Jesus — not the brother of the devil, not the god of Mormonism, not the gospel of Mormonism. Mormonism is false and cannot save anyone. Carm.org
Kevin,
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE a man must do to obtain eternal life. But where he/she spends it will depend on their level of commitment.
Again…what does 1 Corinthians 15:4 and John 14:2 mean to you?
Baptism is a window to the future, not the end of the journey. We cannot just say we are saved, and never again prove it through our actions and deeds. “Faith woithour works is dead.” Lip service will not work.
Bill,
That doesn’t sound like a “free gift” to me.
Kevin,
Sorry, but I DID NOT write the Bible.
James 2:18
James 2: 20
James 2:26
1 Thessalonians 1:3
Are these the words of God or not?
2 Peter 2:1 states,
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon them swift destruction.”
Bret,
Was not the original King James version correct?
If not, who appointed themselves to be the one to change it to the NKJV?
Bill,
How do you account for Ephesians 2:8-9?
“For it is by grace you have been saved,through faithand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.”
Kevin,
As I mentioned previously, I can account for Ephesians 2: 8-9 by telling you yet once again, that ALL men (except sons of perdition) WILL receive a DEGREE OF GLORY. That of course will be based on the level faith (servitude and love toward the Savior) he/she had here in this life.
James 1: 22-23 states…
“But be ye doers of the word, and NOT hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
For if any be a hearer ONLY, and NOT a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass.”
John 14:2 states…
“In my Fathers house are MANY MANSIONS: If it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare A PLACE for you.”
1 Corinthians 15: 40 states…
“There are CELESTIAL bodies, and bodies TERRESTRIAL: But the GLORY of the CELESTIAL is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.”
Now Kevin…I am just a common man. You on the other hand are a pastor, trained in the scriptures, and entrusted of many souls to teach and preach proper gospel principles and sound doctrine.
HOW can you NOT tell the whole story? If only part of the story is being taught, then there are many wonderful and precious parts being omitted. How many souls are counting on YOU to tell the truth…or the whole story?
You have said that the Book of Mormon is a plagarized version of the KJV. That is simply NOT true. There are stories of ancient tribes who lived on this continent (and the America’s) that have NOTHING to do with the Bible. You have never read it, so HOW can you be an expert on it’s content?
Please explain this:
Ezekiel 37: 16 & 19 statea…
16 “Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it For Judah (Bible), and for the children of Israel his companions:
Then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph (Book of Mormon), the stick (or scroll) of Ephraim, and for all the House of Israel his companons.”
19 “Say unto thee, thus saith the Lord God; behold I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and WILL put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and MAKE THEM ONE STICK, and they shall BE ONE IN MY HAND.”
This was prophesied to happen, and it has. The restoration of the gospel (WHOLE STORY) has been restored to the earth in these last days, because many plain and precious truths were stricken or omitted at the time of the apostasy, and that explains WHY there are so many denominations, and carnal, sensual and devilish versions of HIS true word..
Bill,
Explain the thief on the cross? Explain this passage:
Matthew 20:1-16
1″For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3″About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5So they went.
“He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’
7″ ‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.
“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’
8″When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’
9″The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12′These men who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
13″But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
16″So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Camp Atheist?
Kevin,
I will explain anything your heart desires.
Right after you begin to share the WHOLE story with those who are paying you to teach solid gospel principles and sound doctrine. As long as those things (from the King James Bible) are being omitted by you and other pastors, you are heaping destruction upon your souls! God will not be mocked.
I have given you countless scriptures out of your/my Bible, and you refuse to address them. They are plain and simple truths, but you continue with the smoke screens.
Either you don’t know the answers…or…by telling the truth, you run the risk of a mass exodus whereas thousands of those precious souls who have been held in darkness (partial truths) go searching for the whole answers. Which…by the way…should be happening real soon. Most false churches (those who withhold truth and light for financial gain & filthy lucre) will soon crumble.
Bill,
You haven’t explained anything. The many mansions reference has nothing to do with stages of heaven. It means there is plenty of room for anyone who places their trust in God.
The 1 Cor. reference doesn’t mean we will have our own planets.
Ezekiel is not talking about Joseph Smith.
The whole story is a crock! Joseph Smith plagiarized the Book of Mormon from the KJV. Show me one shred of evidence that it can be dated before the 1800’s.
Now answer my question please.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Camp Atheist?
THE
BOOK OF MORMON
AN ACCOUNT WRITTEN BY
THE HAND OF MORMON
UPON PLATES
TAKEN FROM THE PLATES OF NEPHI
Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.
An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.
TRANSLATED BY JOSEPH SMITH, Jun.
First English edition published in 1830
Bill,
Show me proof that this document was legitimate. Also, why does the Book of Mormon not line up with the Bible?
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Camp Atheist?
THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith
Kevin,
You are showing signs of confusion.
First you told the world that the Book of Mormon WAS a plagarized version of the King James Bible.
Now however…you ask me WHY the Book of Mormon does not line up with the Bible>
Which is it?
Bill,
Tell me one non-Mormon who believes that the Book of Mormon is a reliable document.
Also, I’m not confused. The KJV is reliable but to plagiarize a book proves your people are hiding the truth.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Camp Atheist?
Ex. 28: 30
30 ¶ And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the aUrim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron’s heart, when he goeth in before the Lord: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually.
Lev. 8: 8
8 And he put the abreastplate upon him: also he put in the breastplate the bUrim and the Thummim.
Deut. 33: 8
8 ¶ And of aLevi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy bUrim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst cstrive at the waters of dMeribah;
Ezra 2: 63
63 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most aholy things, till there stood up a priest with bUrim and with Thummim.
Kevin,
Now that you have learned from your/my own Bible (KJV) what a Urim & Thummim is, try to read this in it’s entirety.
TESTIMONY OF THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH
The Prophet Joseph Smith’s own words about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon are:
“On the evening of the . . . twenty-first of September [1823] . . . I betook myself to prayer and supplication to Almighty God . . . .
“While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.
“He had on a loose robe of most exquisite whiteness. It was a whiteness beyond anything earthly I had ever seen; nor do I believe that any earthly thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrists; so, also, were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.
“Not only was his robe exceedingly white, but his whole person was glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning. The room was exceedingly light, but not so very bright as immediately around his person. When I first looked upon him, I was afraid; but the fear soon left me.
“He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.
“He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
“Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted Seers in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.
* * * * * * *
“Again, he told me, that when I got those plates of which he had spoken—for the time that they should be obtained was not yet fulfilled—I should not show them to any person; neither the breastplate with the Urim and Thummim; only to those to whom I should be commanded to show them; if I did I should be destroyed. While he was conversing with me about the plates, the vision was opened to my mind that I could see the place where the plates were deposited, and that so clearly and distinctly that I knew the place again when I visited it.
“After this communication, I saw the light in the room begin to gather immediately around the person of him who had been speaking to me, and it continued to do so, until the room was again left dark, except just around him, when instantly I saw, as it were, a conduit open right up into heaven, and he ascended until he entirely disappeared, and the room was left as it had been before this heavenly light had made its appearance.
“I lay musing on the singularity of the scene, and marveling greatly at what had been told to me by this extraordinary messenger; when, in the midst of my meditation, I suddenly discovered that my room was again beginning to get lighted, and in an instant, as it were, the same heavenly messenger was again by my bedside.
“He commenced, and again related the very same things which he had done at his first visit, without the least variation; which having done, he informed me of great judgments which were coming upon the earth, with great desolations by famine, sword, and pestilence; and that these grievous judgments would come on the earth in this generation. Having related these things, he again ascended as he had done before.
“By this time, so deep were the impressions made on my mind, that sleep had fled from my eyes, and I lay overwhelmed in astonishment at what I had both seen and heard. But what was my surprise when again I beheld the same messenger at my bedside, and heard him rehearse or repeat over again to me the same things as before; and added a caution to me, telling me that Satan would try to tempt me (in consequence of the indigent circumstances of my father’s family), to get the plates for the purpose of getting rich. This he forbade me, saying that I must have no other object in view in getting the plates but to glorify God, and must not be influenced by any other motive than that of building His kingdom; otherwise I could not get them.
“After this third visit, he again ascended into heaven as before, and I was again left to ponder on the strangeness of what I had just experienced; when almost immediately after the heavenly messenger had ascended from me the third time, the cock crowed, and I found that day was approaching, so that our interviews must have occupied the whole of that night.
“I shortly after arose from my bed, and, as usual, went to the necessary labors of the day; but, in attempting to work as at other times, I found my strength so exhausted as to render me entirely unable. My father, who was laboring along with me, discovered something to be wrong with me, and told me to go home. I started with the intention of going to the house; but, in attempting to cross the fence out of the field where we were, my strength entirely failed me, and I fell helpless on the ground, and for a time was quite unconscious of anything.
“The first thing that I can recollect was a voice speaking unto me, calling me by name. I looked up, and beheld the same messenger standing over my head, surrounded by light as before. He then again related unto me all that he had related to me the previous night, and commanded me to go to my father and tell him of the vision and commandments which I had received.
“I obeyed; I returned to my father in the field, and rehearsed the whole matter to him. He replied to me that it was of God, and told me to go and do as commanded by the messenger. I left the field, and went to the place where the messenger had told me the plates were deposited; and owing to the distinctness of the vision which I had had concerning it, I knew the place the instant that I arrived there.
“Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a hill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth.
“Having removed the earth, I obtained a lever, which I got fixed under the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up. I looked in, and there indeed did I behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, as stated by the messenger. The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them.
“I made an attempt to take them out, but was forbidden by the messenger, and was again informed that the time for bringing them forth had not yet arrived, neither would it, until four years from that time; but he told me that I should come to that place precisely in one year from that time, and that he would there meet with me, and that I should continue to do so until the time should come for obtaining the plates.
“Accordingly, as I had been commanded, I went at the end of each year, and at each time I found the same messenger there, and received instruction and intelligence from him at each of our interviews, respecting what the Lord was going to do, and how and in what manner His kingdom was to be conducted in the last days.
* * * * * * *
“At length the time arrived for obtaining the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate. On the twenty-second day of September, one thousand eight hundred and twenty-seven, having gone as usual at the end of another year to the place where they were deposited, the same heavenly messenger delivered them up to me with this charge: That I should be responsible for them; that if I should let them go carelessly, or through any neglect of mine, I should be cut off; but that if I would use all my endeavors to preserve them, until he, the messenger, should call for them, they should be protected.
“I soon found out the reason why I had received such strict charges to keep them safe, and why it was that the messenger had said that when I had done what was required at my hand, he would call for them. For no sooner was it known that I had them, than the most strenuous exertions were used to get them from me. Every stratagem that could be invented was resorted to for that purpose. The persecution became more bitter and severe than before, and multitudes were on the alert continually to get them from me if possible. But by the wisdom of God, they remained safe in my hands, until I had accomplished by them what was required at my hand. When, according to arrangements, the messenger called for them, I delivered them up to him; and he has them in his charge until this day, being the second day of May, one thousand eight hundred and thirty-eight.”
For the complete record, see Joseph Smith—History, in the Pearl of Great Price, and History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, volume 1, chapters 1 through 6.
The ancient record thus brought forth from the earth as the voice of a people speaking from the dust, and translated into modern speech by the gift and power of God as attested by Divine affirmation, was first published to the world in the year 1830 as The Book of Mormon.
Kevin,
Do you believe there Prophets any more? If so, who is one today?
Bill,
No. And that is the problem. I don’t believe God speaks to anyone that is contrary to the Bible. Joseph Smith was not inspired by God because his claims were false. If he were a prophet he would have been stoned because his claims were false. Your religion changes with the times. But God never changes.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Camp Atheist?
Kevin,
Who leads the modern Christian Church today?
Also, if there is only one church (christians), WHY are there so many variations?
Lastly, am I going to hell?
Bill,
Christ is the head of the body.
I have no idea if you are going to hell. That isn’t up to me to decide. I do know this–according to the Bible there is only one way to go to heaven. That is having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. We can’t work our way to heaven it is only through Grace.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Camp Atheist?
Kevin,
You are telling me that ALL members of The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints DO NOT have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, because we choose to do more after we are saved, than rest on our laurels.
Yet, ALL of the other members of christian churches, who may say “well we’re saved now…there’s nothing more to do than sit back and wait on Jesus’ return”………
those people all DO have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and as such, can fully expect great reward at judgement???.
That means they do not have to keep the commandments, go to church, tithe a FULL 10% (as commanded), or anything else that is specified in the Bible. They have reached glory land already, and are just biding time.
Yet…the poor old Mormoms…who likewise have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ…just a deeper one whereas they choose to show their love for Jesus (true conversion) by their deeds and actions…should expect to be cast out of the kingdom???
Is that what you are telling me???
Houston…we’ve got a problem
Kevin,
For 10 minutes, I would ask humbly that you step aside from yourself, and read this in it’s short entirety…
Ensign » 2007 » May
The Miracle of the Holy Bible
Elder M. Russell Ballard
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
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M. Russell Ballard, “The Miracle of the Holy Bible,” Ensign, May 2007, 80–82
We are true and full believers in the Lord Jesus Christ and in His revealed word through the Holy Bible.
My brothers and sisters, the Holy Bible is a miracle! It is a miracle that the Bible’s 4,000 years of sacred and secular history were recorded and preserved by the prophets, apostles, and inspired churchmen.
It is a miracle that we have the Bible’s powerful doctrine, principles, poetry, and stories. But most of all, it is a wonderful miracle that we have the account of the life, ministry, and words of Jesus, which was protected through the Dark Ages and through the conflicts of countless generations so that we may have it today.
It is a miracle that the Bible literally contains within its pages the converting, healing Spirit of Christ, which has turned men’s hearts for centuries, leading them to pray, to choose right paths, and to search to find their Savior.
The Holy Bible is well named. It is holy because it teaches truth, holy because it warms us with its spirit, holy because it teaches us to know God and understand His dealings with men, and holy because it testifies throughout its pages of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Abraham Lincoln said of the Bible: “This Great Book … is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Saviour gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it we could not know right from wrong” (Speeches and Writings, 1859–1865 [1989], 628).
It is not by chance or coincidence that we have the Bible today. Righteous individuals were prompted by the Spirit to record both the sacred things they saw and the inspired words they heard and spoke. Other devoted people were prompted to protect and preserve these records. Men like John Wycliffe, the courageous William Tyndale, and Johannes Gutenberg were prompted against much opposition to translate the Bible into language people could understand and to publish it in books people could read. I believe even the scholars of King James had spiritual promptings in their translation work.
The Dark Ages were dark because the light of the gospel was hidden from the people. They did not have the apostles or prophets, nor did they have access to the Bible. The clergy kept the scriptures secret and unavailable to the people. We owe much to the many brave martyrs and reformers like Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Huss who demanded freedom to worship and common access to the holy books.
William Tyndale gave his life because he believed so deeply in the power of the Bible. He said, “The nature of God’s word is, that whosoever read it, or hear it reasoned and disputed before him, it will begin immediately to make him every day better and better, till he be grown into a perfect man” (in S. Michael Wilcox, Fire in the Bones: William Tyndale—Martyr, Father of the English Bible [2004], xv).
Honest, diligent study of the Bible does make us better and better, and we must ever remember the countless martyrs who knew of its power and who gave their lives that we may be able to find within its words the path to the eternal happiness and the peace of our Heavenly Father’s kingdom.
Although these early Christian reformers agreed on many things, they ultimately disagreed on many points of doctrine. This resulted in the organization of numerous Christian denominations. Roger Williams, an early champion of religious liberty, concluded that there was “no regularly-constituted Church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any Church ordinance; nor could there be, until new apostles were sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming he was seeking” (see William Cullen Bryant, ed., Picturesque America; or, the Land We Live In, 2 vols. [1872–74], 1:502).
Tens of millions of individuals have come to a faith in God and in Jesus Christ through seeking truth in the Holy Bible. Countless numbers of them had nothing but the Bible to feed and guide their faith.
Because of the efforts of the reformers, “the Bible became a household possession. The word of God was read around the family fireside of the lowly as well as the parlors of the great” (John A. Widtsoe, in Conference Report, Apr. 1939, 20).
Millions of families have come together seeking to find the Church of Jesus Christ through their study of the Bible. One of those families, in the early 1800s in upstate New York, was the family of Joseph Smith Sr. One of his sons was Joseph Smith Jr., who searched the Bible, seeking to know which of the many denominations was the same as the Church that Jesus Christ organized. He was prompted by the words of the Bible to pray for further spiritual light and knowledge from God. Determined to seek the wisdom promised in the holy scriptures, Joseph knelt in humble prayer early in the spring of 1820. Oh, what marvelous light and truth were shed upon him that day as he beheld the glorious manifestation of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ! Once again God called a prophet as He did in the days of Noah, Abraham, and Moses.
How grateful we should be for the Holy Bible. In it we learn not only of the life and teachings and doctrines of Christ, we learn of His Church and of His priesthood and of the organization which He established and named the Church of Jesus Christ in those former days. We believe in that Church, and we believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that same Church, restored to earth, complete, with the same organization and the same priesthood.
Without the Bible, we would not know of His Church then, nor would we have the fulness of His gospel now.
I love the Bible, its teachings, its lessons, and its spirit. I love the Old Testament’s compelling, profound stories and its great prophets testifying of the coming of Christ. I love the New Testament’s apostolic travels and miracles and the letters of Paul. Most of all, I love its eyewitness accounts of the words and the example and the Atonement of our Savior Jesus Christ. I love the perspective and peace that come from reading the Bible.
Brothers and sisters, I am sure many of you have had the experience of hearing people say that “Mormons are not Christians because they have their own Bible, the Book of Mormon.” To anyone harboring this misconception, we say that we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior and the author of our salvation and that we believe, revere, and love the Holy Bible. We do have additional sacred scripture, including the Book of Mormon, but it supports the Bible, never substituting for it.
Jesus taught that we should “search the scriptures; for … they are they which testify of me” (John 5:39). These words provide insight and inspiration to all who sincerely seek to know and understand the truth about Jesus Christ. The scriptures are rich in history, doctrine, stories, sermons, and testimonies, all of which ultimately focus on the eternal Christ and His physical and spiritual mission to Heavenly Father’s children.
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that “all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable” (2 Timothy 3:16). We love the Bible and other scriptures. That may be surprising to some who may not be aware of our belief in the Bible as the revealed word of God. It is one of the pillars of our faith, a powerful witness of the Savior and of Christ’s ongoing influence in the lives of those who worship and follow Him. The more we read and study the Bible and its teachings, the more clearly we see the doctrinal underpinnings of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. We tend to love the scriptures that we spend time with. We may need to balance our study in order to love and understand all scripture.
You young people especially, do not discount or devalue the Holy Bible. It is the sacred, holy record of the Lord’s life. The Bible contains hundreds of pages more than all of our other scripture combined. It is the bedrock of all Christianity. We do not criticize or belittle anyone’s beliefs. Our great responsibility as Christians is to share all that God has revealed with all of His sons and daughters.
Those who join this Church do not give up their faith in the Bible—they strengthen it. The Book of Mormon does not dilute nor diminish nor de-emphasize the Bible. On the contrary, it expands, extends, and exalts it. The Book of Mormon testifies of the Bible, and both testify of Christ.
The first testament of Christ is the Bible’s Old Testament, which predicted and prophesied of the coming of the Savior, His transcendent life, and His liberating Atonement.
The second Bible testament of Christ is the New Testament, which records His birth, His life, His ministry, His gospel, His Church, His Atonement, and His Resurrection, as well as the testimonies of His Apostles.
The third testament of Christ is the Book of Mormon, which also foretells Christ’s coming, confirms the Bible’s account of His saving Atonement, and then reveals the resurrected Lord’s visit to the earth’s other hemisphere. The subtitle of the Book of Mormon, the clarifying purpose statement printed on the cover of every copy, is “Another Testament of Jesus Christ.”
Each of these three testaments is a part of the great, indivisible whole of the Lord’s revealed word to His children. They contain the words of Christ, which we have been admonished to feast upon as a means of qualifying for eternal life (see 2 Nephi 31:20). Those who think that one part is more important or more true than the other parts are missing some of the beauty and completeness of the canon of ancient scripture.
And those who think that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not believe in Jesus Christ or in the Bible should take time to understand the Church, the significance of its name, and the power of its message.
I am puzzled by any who would question this Church’s belief in the Bible and our position as Christians. The name of the Church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In our last general conference, here in this building, our Church leaders quoted from the Bible nearly 200 times. This Church is organized and functions like the Church that Christ and His Apostles established in the New Testament. Seated on the stand today are the prophet and the apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I bear solemn witness that we are true and full believers in the Lord Jesus Christ and in His revealed word through the Holy Bible. We not only believe the Bible—we strive to follow its precepts and to teach its message. The message of our missionaries is Christ and His gospel and His Atonement, and the scriptures are the text of that message. We say to all people, “We extend our love to you and invite you to come. Let us share all that God has revealed.”
My brothers and sisters, we must help all people, including our own members, understand the power and importance of the Holy Bible. The Bible is scripture that leads us and all mankind to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior. May God grant us the desire and capacity to accept and live His teachings is my humble prayer in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, amen.
Bill,
May I ask an honest question of you. You provide Kevin and the readers of his blog with many links, direct quotes, and very lengthy “essays.” If, as you say there is no other way to God but through Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, may I ask, what is the importance of these essays? Where do they rank in comparisons to God’s Holy Word? Where does the book of Mormom rank with the Holy Bible? Are they equal? Is one more important than the other? If one is superior, why is it superior?
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..The Only Logical Decision
Bill,
Mormons don’t believe in a personal relationship w/ Jesus like Christians do. You believe you have to work you way to heaven. That isn’t a relationship-that is slave to master.
Brother M. Steve Heartsill,
If you will but read the last entry I made her, I think you will get your answer.
But for anyine (myself included) to siit in judgement of another persons heart, and their walk with Jesus Christ does not seem to be how the Savior would act if he were amongst us.
The first time I read this blog…well over a year ago, it was brutal the things which were being told about we as Latter Day Saints. And those things were by men who profess to be followers of Christ.
I never intended for things to go as they did, but it was brutal. Keep in mind that agnostics, atheists, and any person of any faith are openly welcomed on this blog with open arms…yet…the Mormons are trashed as being a cult, false followers of Jesus Christ and the like.
If you woulod only look up the definition of CULT, you would learn that ALL religions are a cult.
My job is to share with the world that the gospel, which was lost due to apostasy, IS restored to the earth in it’s fullness, and that God has placed a living Prophet on this earth (just as in olden days) to guide the affairs of HIS true Church.
There are so many churches, beliefs, versions, misunderstandings…because at the time of the apostasy, men and wommen were left to interpret the gospel as they thought.
Not all versions can be true, and Jesus promised that HE would restore HIS TRUE CHURCH just before HIS return.
Bill,
You are always welcome here. I’ve ony deleted one of your 100’s of comments & it had nothing to do w/ Mormons.
Personally I believe Mormons are more dangerous than Atheists & Agnostics because at least their honest. Mormons deceive people by making your religion seem to be Christian. It is not.
BTW, you will love my post for Monday.
Bill,
I am greatly surprised that you would consider me a brother…seeing that I am a Christian, Baptist, and Southern Baptist in particular. According to your last reply, I doubt you consider my salvation genuine and you do not believe that I am a part of His TRUE CHURCH.
So, no attacks from me. I haven’t been on this site for the long, so I’m new to the discussion. I have tried to read some of your essays and tried to understand your arguments. But, I see you talking in circles, as far as I can tell.
LDS and any other “church” that places Jesus Christ as equal with other things/people or talks about works as being equal with salvation, is a cult.
I’m a believer in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone. He has no equal. He has no need for another book, other than God’s holy inspired Word. Period. That’s where I find my answers, hope, and future.
I’m sorry you have felt that you have been attacked. Again, I have no history here. I do not mean to attack you in any form or fashion. I just disagree with your assessment of what/who a believer is.
So, in your view, since I believe in Jesus Christ as God’s only begotton Son, and have placed my life and heart into His hands, will I be in God’s heaven when the end comes, whether for me or the world?
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..The Only Logical Decision
Kvin,
Are you certain I will like your post for Monday?
Would you make the same post for Muslims or Atheists?
If I read your last response correctly, you are insinuating that I am not honest, and deceive people.
Isaiah 5: 20
20 ¶ Woe unto them that call aevil bgood, and good evil; that put cdarkness for dlight, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Oh Kevin
I did find it peculiar that the one post that you deleted of mine, was about a friend of yours. I was very supportive of you and your friend.
Later, you came back and posted the same information that you had previously said was not to be discussed???
Bill,
Can a person go to heaven by faith in Jesus alone?
Steve,
The answer to your question is emphatically YES. Yiu WILL be in part of God’s Heaven. It is very large and covers many mansions, Also, ther are levels (or degrees of glory) who await every one of us.
See 1 Corinnthians 15:40
Kevin,
YES,
A person CAN go to Heaven by faith in Jesus Christ alone. But which part of it?
Please remember that Jesus Christ has a Father who sent HIM. They are 2 separate beings.
It is like having the option of going to Ted Turner Field to watch the Atlanta Braves…versus…going to Myrtle Beach to watch their farm club play. Which would bring more happiness?
Would you want to live with Jesus Christ only, if you learned that you could live with He and His Eternal Father?
Steve…I was a Southern Baptist for many years. Kevin already knows this by the way. I spent years in choir, teaching RA’s, working tirelessly coaching a mens softball team and so forth.
The entire time, I was O.K. but never felt as though I was learning everything I needed to know. MANY of my questions went unanswered…just as they are ignored on this blog.
One day as I was praying, I asked God to shed light and truth on me. A short time later, I heard something on television talking about HOW I could spend eternity with my wife and children. NOT the secular marriage where “death do us part” but for all eternity.
That sounded to me like a sensible thing…especially considering HOW hard we work on marriage here, to then lose the loves of our life at death??? Wouldn’t God be more loving toward us than that???
That is when I investigated whether the LDS Church was true. I WAS NOT brianwashed at all. No one pushed me, and in fact…I really tested the spirits.
I DID get on my knees and ask God if this was true to please manifest it to me. Some time later HE did…through the witness of thr Holy Ghost.
Eternal marriage sealings were being performed anciently, and that is what we do in the Temples which now dot the earth.
How many Baptist brothers tonight would choose to spend eternity with their families..if only they knew where and how to do that???
I love you guys!
Bill
Bill,
I care about you too. If I didn’t I wouldn’t do this. If you made a decision to follow Jesus years ago then I will see you in heaven. But your religion is not Christian at all. Jesus & Lucifer were not brothers as your religion states. Jesus also said we will not be married in heaven. As much as I love my wife of 20 years according to Jesus we will be like angels. So your religion is teaching lies.
Kevin,
For the record, please show me the scripture where Jesus specifically sais we WOULD NOT be married in Heaven.
If I am teaching lies, prove it.
Bill,
Matthew 22:30
“At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.”
From Doctrine & Covenants 132: 16
15 Therefore, if a aman marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in bheaven, which angels are ministering cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever. .
Matt. 23: 12
12 And whosoever shall aexalt himself shall be babased; and he that shall chumble himself shall be exalted.
Bill,
That is not from the Bible. So are you saying that trumps Jesus?
I’m a little bit late into this, but I’d like to ask Bill a question:
Since it has been proven that Joseph Smith faked the translation of the Book of Abraham, why would anyone believe the Book of Mormon to be true?
It ALL comes back (as said by many of your presidents and prophets) to the testimony of Joseph Smith. IMO, There are just too many questions regarding his integrity and character to trust any of his claims to a “new” revelation from God.
Rick Boyne’s last blog post..Memorial Day Fun
It is clear, after Bill’s last answer, that he is putting the Bible and the book of mormon on equal ground.
To me, the case is closed on his arguments…it is not Jesus and Jesus alone. It is Jesus and Joseph Smith/book of mormon…
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..A Candidate without a Church
Steve Heartsill…please take a look at this. It is probably too late for the others, but you have a different spirit about you….one which will actually ask God to manifest to you if this is true or not. Imperitive reading:
THE SECOND BOOK OF NEPHI
CHAPTER 29
Many gentiles shall reject the Book of Mormon—They shall say: We need no more Bible—The Lord speaks to many nations—He will judge the world out of the books thus written. Between 559 and 545 B.C.
1 But behold, there shall be many—at that day when I shall proceed to do a amarvelous work among them, that I may remember my bcovenants which I have made unto the children of men, that I may set my hand again the csecond time to recover my people, which are of the house of Israel;
2 And also, that I may remember the promises which I have made unto thee, Nephi, and also unto thy father, that I would remember your seed; and that the awords of your seed should proceed forth out of my mouth unto your seed; and my words shall bhiss forth unto the cends of the earth, for a dstandard unto my people, which are of the house of Israel;
3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A aBible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a aBible; and it shall proceed forth from the bJews, mine ancient covenant people. And what cthank they the dJews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?
5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have acursed them, and have bhated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.
6 Thou fool, that shall say: A aBible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
7 Know ye not that there are more anations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the bisles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the cearth beneath; and I bring forth my dword unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the atestimony of btwo nations is a cwitness unto you that I am God, that I remember one dnation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two enations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the asame yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my bwords according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one cword ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my dwork is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.
10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my awords; neither bneed ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.
11 For I command aall men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall bwrite the words which I speak unto them; for out of the cbooks which shall be written I will djudge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.
12 For behold, I shall speak unto the aJews and they shall bwrite it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall cwrite it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto dall nations of the earth and they shall write it.
13 And it shall come to pass that the aJews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the blost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.
14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the ahouse of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the blands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in cone. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my dpeople, who are of the ehouse of Israel, that I am God, and that I fcovenanted with gAbraham that I would remember his hseed iforever.
Bill,
Is the Book of Mormon more important than the Bible?
Bill and Kevin,
The answer is clear by Bill’s last answer. I was incorrect. Bill doesn’t put the Bible and the book of mormon on equal ground–the book of mormon supercedes the Bible–for him and LDS folks.
Sorry Bill. I disagree wholeheartedly. Nothing replaces the Bible, the Holy Scriptures given to us by God Himself.
Bill, over the years, I have actually read much of the book of mormon. It helped me understand what people with your beliefs hold true and allowed for a healthy dialog. As I read, I didn’t find the uplifting of God’s Word. I did find many things that contridict God’s Word. And for that, and that alone, I cannot follow the teachings of your church.
I will love you in Christ and I will dialogue with you in seriousness and intergrity. However, I cannot and will not agree with what your church teaches.
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