May 26 2008
Are Pentecostal Ministers being Targeting in ‘Prosperity Gospel’ probe?
Sen. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa), who is investigating six televangelists for alleged lavish spending, is facing growing criticism from prominent conservatives and evangelicals, some of whom question whether Grassley is biased against the Pentecostal televangelists because of his Baptist faith. Many are also concerned that his probe intrudes on the churches’ constitutional right to practice their religion.
Kenneth Copeland, a Texas-based televangelist who is a subject of Grassley’s investigation, recently launched a Web site, http://believersstandunited.com, to fight the probe. Copeland said the investigation is “aimed at publicly questioning the religious beliefs of the targeted churches, their ministers, and their members while ignoring televangelists of other denominations.”
Read more here.
[From me]
Maybe it is less targeting Pentecostals and more targeting heresy. Not every Pentecostal believes the health and wealth junk that Copeland and others are teaching. Was Jesus rich?
Jesus said this in Mark 12:41-44
Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins,worth only a fraction of a penny. Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.”
There is nothing wrong with making money and having wealth if that is what God decides for your life. But the junk these health and wealth preachers are teaching is wrong. Jesus never promises us anything. The only thing we are promised when we come to faith is eternal life and abundant life on earth. That doesn’t always mean your have lots of money-it means you will have what you need. I don’t think anyone gets blessed by the health and wealth heresy except the preachers begging for you to sow their seed.
What do you think?
27 responses so far
I haven’t investigated the specific claims, but it seems to me that they are being target for their behaviors and not their beliefs.
Their whole “seed sowing” schtick would be less offensive if they told you to donate to real charities - you know, the ones that help meet people’s physical and spiritual needs.
But these “charities” just ask you to donate to them so they can spend lavishly on themselves and on expanding their “ministries” to ask more people for more money.
Neil’s last blog post..Does your evangelism look like this?
When stuff like this happens, I am reminded that other unfriendly nations were always around Israel. But they weren’t any threat unless God chose to use them to exact justice.
As was the case, when God told Habakkuk that HE (God) was raising up the Babylonians for just such purposes.
Bob Cleveland’s last blog post..Easy Believism …Round Two
I despise what the propsperity guys are doing.
However, I sincerely believe that the government needs to leave it alone. They are only pursuing it for tax money, in my opinion, not whether it’s “right or wrong”. Soon they’ll use this case as precedent to cause problems for a lot of other churches. I don’t agree with the Mormons, either, but accusations of “child abuse” and “rape” based on a definition of “childhood” that the church does not agree with is dangerously close to saying “you can’t teach against homosexuality” and “you can’t homeschool”. Likewise, the Creflo Dollar investigation is dangerously close to telling churches that pastors can only be paid a certain amount, or that churches MUST file tax documents regarding income, etc.
I know it’s a terrible situation, but it’s NOT the job of the government to investigate wrong doctrine.
It is a function of government to protect its citizens from fraud. In the case of televangelists, fraud is committed when they raise money by telling people it will be put to a specific use, when instead it winds up in their own pockets. Several of these scandals have been notorious.
If people still want to continue to give even when the doctrine is unbiblical and false, that is their business. But if they are prompted to give by schemes and fraud, the government should intervene and prosecute.
One of the reasons there are so many restrictions and requirements on pastoral tax allowances now is because the Mormon church has been adept at figuring out how to avoid having its profit-making businesses pay taxes. If you are honest, and above board, you should have nothing to fear and no reason to complain.
Lee’s last blog post..Where Did They All Go?
No.
These guys need to be investigated.
Government needs to step in if we, the body of Christ, cannot govern ourselves. Oh lookee there, we can’t.
We have this “model” in the American church, mind you that is not biblical based whatsoever, that is akin to a pyramid.
On top of that pyramid, there is just one person. Tell me, who are they being truly held accountable to? Don’t say God.
The prosperity crap gospel probe by the Senate is the very best thing that the US Government has done in the last 8 years.
(I am not being sarcastic, by the way.)
Joe Louthan’s last blog post..Diet Challenge Thingie, Update 1
For the record, I am non-denomination but I happily grew up Pentacostal.
Joe Louthan’s last blog post..Diet Challenge Thingie, Update 1
Whether we believe what these 6 ministries believe or not, the thing that is of primary concern is that a senator is targeting for their beliefs. Senator Grassley comes from a background that has been historically theological opponents of pentecostals.
Seeing a senator question the ministry purpose of a 23,000 dollar toilet, while fully understanding and ignoring the ministry purpose of 2 billion spent by the Catholic church to defend child molesting priests is crazy.
Personally, I think that the IRS needs to be the ones doing the investigation. If not, then let the investigation include a wide spectrum of ministries including Church of Scientology, Mormons, and other so-called churches so that there can be a realistic comparison.
Kevin,
You get no argument from me regarding the fact that these guys are preaching heresy. But the job of warning people about these wolves in sheeps clothing is that of pastors, not politicians.
Furthermore (out comes the Libertarian in me) Senator Grassley has absolutely NO business intruding in a religious matter. Government has absolutely NO role whatsoever in this. It is amazing to me that when the church tries to speak to government government cries “separation of church and state,” yet nothing of the sort is said here.
Think of where this might go if Senator Grassley gets his way. Next the IRS will be investigating EVERYBODY, because one you give government an inch . . . .well, you know.
Trust me, no one in this room would love to see these ministries fail more than me. But the end does NOT justify the means, especially when the governement is involved. Their only responsibility is to STAY OUT!!
OK, off the soapbox now.
Joel’s last blog post..Pray for the Chapman Family
Joel, I agree with you that it should be pastors doing this investigation.
But…
1. We are not doing it.
2. These heads of ministries (as the perception) seems to be that they have nobody they keep accountable to.
I have heard side comments from so called “born leaders” where they felt frustrated and boxed by being accountable to somebody.
So what is the purpose of us being called to be shepherds? So that we get so high and mighty that that we hold ourselves “accountable” to God alone?
I know this is not reality for sure but this is the perception of not only believers but non-believers alike.
Joe Louthan’s last blog post..Diet Challenge Thingie, Update 1
Grassley is not SBC (is he?) so to suggest that he is part of a group that specifically is an opponent of Pentecostalism is I think a reach.
It is another example of how a single Baptist group has sought to define what it is to be Baptist and in so doing caused all Baptists to be suspected of being biased against very nonessential doctrines.
I think any nonprofit agency should at all times be ready to provide their financial records to governmental agencies. If not for the purpose of determining that they are truly nonprofit, then at least to determine what spending should be considered personal spending (taxable income).
I think it is dangerous anytime the government steps into what people can and cannot believe or do with there beliefs. As much as I dislike the prosperity gospel message, I don’t think the government should get involved. That sets a dangerous precident.
Yes, there are some bad apples who are spoiling the barrel if you will, but it is a Kingdom principle to give of what we have…we just need to take a close look as to where it goes…as for me, the more I give to the things of God the more I seem to have…it was when I tried to hang on to it that I came up short! By the by, “Hi Kevin!”…it’s been a long time!
I am unashamedly Pentecostal (even though I am a member of a very decidedly NON-Pentecostal/Charismatic congregation). Yet, I believe that if churches are going to claim and exercise their “tax-exempt” status, their “books” and spending habits should be fully open to investigation by the legal authorities in this land.
Yes, Congress should investigate the persons/ministries in question….and any others that smell of impropriety.
Phil Hoover’s last blog post..Maria Chapman…goes to Heaven!
I think that the IRS should investigate these guys. Isn’t that what they exist for? Why is a Baptist Senator investigating pentacostal ministries and not any large baptist ministries? Don’t you think that Charles Stanley has a jet and a big house? What about Ed Young? It just doesn’t seem right.
Perhaps Congress should waste some more of our dollars looking into the 2 billion dollars that the Catholic Church spent covering up child molestation?
I find it very interesting that it appears that all the Christian’s commenting on this article are casting stones a someone that they have no proof of doing anything wrong. Just because you do not like someone’s doctrine does not mean they are a crook. If you do not like the Word of faith why not start or support a Church that teaches what you believe and spend your time teaching people about Salvation instead of complaining that someone else is a heretic? How is your pointing out what you believe is wrong with the Word of Faith going to help anyone get saved?
Wow, it would be most helpful if those of you commenting would only discuss facts… not throw around gossip. No one bought a $22,000 toilet.. it was a German “Commode” (which means wardrobe) and it was a gift not bought. I think the government is the only one buying 22k toliets.
I have actually listened to Kenneth Copeland and have never heard him beg for money.
They are accountable to someone.. It is called the IRS (never brought into this by Grassley) and they voluntarily are audited every year by an independent accounting firm .. are you audited every year?
No one makes you or me send money to any Church unless we want too. However you pay taxes that are wasted and abused every year with no choice? Hmmm maybe we should investigate Grassley???
I have now proclaimed myself as the “Senator Watchdog” HeHe
just kidding…
Phredone,
The reason Christians need to talk about this and expose it is because it is an black eye to the church. Jesus never talked about becoming rich. He called us to carry His cross, not extravagant homes, cars and jets.
Don’t start playing a martyr like someone is out to get the Health/wealth crowd. You bring it on yourself by teaching false doctrines.
Resque,
I see your IP address is from Kenneth Copeland Ministries. Are they asking staff to actually peruse blogs and comment?
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..This isn’t Survivor!
Kevin, First it is your opinion that Word of Faith is false doctrine which is prefectly fine for you to believe. My point is that the most important thing is Salvation. After which all else is almost meaningless. If I choose to believe that scripture says that I can be healthy and weathly and you believe that it does not we should focus on the fact that we are both saved and work to get others saved. I base this on Galatians 6 14But far be it from me to glory [in anything or anyone] except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) through Whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world! 15For neither is circumcision [now] of any importance, nor uncircumcision, but [only] a new creation [the result of a new birth and a new nature in Christ Jesus, the Messiah].
I believe you can substitute your favorite doctrine for circumcision in the above scripture and you will see my point about doctrine meaning nothing next to Salvation.
Phredone,
My problem is that the government gives us tax free status to do good for our communities. The Health/Wealth crowd does good for themselves. If you “sow a seed” then you will get rich. How about taking up one’s cross daily? How about suffering for Him? Are the poor Christians around the world faithless because they don’t have fancy cars, boats, jets, etc?
Sure salvation is the most important thing. But if the world thinks were a bunch of kooks and crooks then they won’t listen to the message of Christ.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..This isn’t Survivor!
Kevin, Thanks for the reply. You are missing my point. You continue to want to argue about doctrine. The world thinks we are Kooks just for believing in God reguardless of our doctirne.
As an aside I believe that I suffer of Christ daily as I submit my will to His. I also believe the Bible is very clear that God wants us to prosper and be in good health here on the Earth. All of the Word of Faith Churches/Ministries that I know anything about all give at least 10% of their income to the poor or needy. This is over and above their work getting the Gospel out. I am sure there are people who try and use the message as a get rich quick scam but those are the exception not the rule.
Let ask you these questions: If we are to help others how are we to do this without money? How much money is to much for me to keep for my family?
Kevin,
my actions are my own. I hear what is being said and it is so far from the truth. I wanted to state my opion.
Resque
Phredone,
I think God does bless some people financially so they can give back to the ministry. But I don’t believe ministers should be teaching falsehoods that it is a sign of God’s blessing just because you have a lot of money. Is Donald Trump blessed? Is Bill Gates blessed? Financial blessing doesn’t mean someone is close to God. You should live off of whatever God gives you.
Resque,
Are poor people out of the will of God?
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Good for the ACLU!
Kevin, I agree with you that financial blessing does not mean you are Godly. Once again it is your opinion that these ministries are teaching a falsehood about prosperity. As to living off what God gives you: I looked up on Ministry Watch’s site (who is definitely not in agreement with the prosperity message) what they say is an acceptable salary for the head of a Church/ministry the size of the ones targeted by Sen. Grassley. It says that the salary should be around $500,000 per year. This amount can surely produce the “extravegant” lifestyle which this ministers are accused of having. So to me they appear to be doing as you say living off what God has given them.
Going back to Salvation: What about the the multitude of people that have come to Salvation throught the outreaches of these ministries (of which I am one) are you saying that it is more important to stop what you call a false teaching about prosperity than to let God use these ministries to reach more people? If not what is your answer to what should happen to these ministries.
Thanks again for your replies I enjoy a good discussion it helps me define what I truly believe.
I’m not sure that Senator Grassley’s agenda is as noble as he says it is. It is disturbing that he went to the media before he contacted the ministries with his questions. Some of his questions do seem to be overly intrusive and a violation of the constitutional right to privacy. The fact the he has selected these particluar ministries also seems to indicate a doctinal bias on his part. I have studied several of these ministries over the years and have found them to be ministries of integrity and ministries that do financially support those less well off than ourselves such as prison ministries, schools and training for ex-convicts and others seeking to leave a life of drugs and poverty.
If what these ministries are doing is truly of God, nothing we can do can stop them. If they are not truly of God, they will fail without our help.
I think Senator Grassley should back off and let the IRS do its thing. He has access to any information the IRS uncovers that raises questions about these ministries.
Malcolm,
I have no idea about Sen. Grassley’s motives. I’m not saying he should be doing what he is doing. I don’t think the world thinks Christians are very sane when they watch some of the antics of TV preachers. Some of the stuff on TBN is outrageous.
I am curious if Kenneth Copeland Ministries is asking their employees to go comment on blogs. I see your IP address is from there too.
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Good for the ACLU!
*claps happily*
I love it when people start arguing series of do/don’ts, rights/wrongs, details about exactly what they do.
No, not really.
Dancing without the music, much?
You are acting like anything we do other than act in accordance with the absolute will of God and our broken hearts bowed to Him alone.
“I looked up on Ministry Watch’s site (who is definitely not in agreement with the prosperity message) what they say is an acceptable salary for the head of a Church/ministry the size of the ones targeted by Sen. Grassley. It says that the salary should be around $500,000 per year.”
Really? Really? This is your best argument? You couldn’t even tried to post up scriptures about the Josephs, Solomons or Jobs of the Bible.
I distinctly remember some such about some guy named Jesus Christ who happens to be the King of Kings and Lord of Lords saying something about giving away what you have and come follow him:
Mark 10:17-31
Then you might argue historical content. Go and read about the rich young guy and see how Jesus spoke straight to his heart in Mark 10:21. This rich guy had an issue with material possessions and security in wealth.
Surely that doesn’t apply to Americans because we don’t struggle with that. Oh wait…
I also distinctly remember the first Christians (which I was sure that image was a bit closer to what Jesus imagined His bride to be then what the churches are now) broke themselves, even despite the tremendous taxation from the Roman government, in order to help those who need. (Acts 2:40-47)
Am I saying we need all to be poor? Goodness no. The man who provided the tomb for Jesus was wealthy. So was Job. So was Abraham. So was Solomon. Joseph the Patriarch ruled over wealth.
But you know what was in common with all of these men: the blessings did not terminate with them. They were blessed because they blessed others.
I challenge anybody undo your Sunday School teachings for one moment and look up why Sodom and Gomorrah was judged by God himself. Give you a clue: it was sexual immorality. Clue 2: Read Ezekiel 16.
Joe Louthan’s last blog post..Music: Xzibit Loses His Newborn Son
ugh…. it wasn’t sexual immorality.
Joe Louthan’s last blog post..Music: Xzibit Loses His Newborn Son