May 23 2008
Atheists want council to end its invocations
Each Monday they meet, after they recite the Pledge of Allegiance but before they read a proclamation or recognition, Grand Junction City Council members take a moment to pray, reflect or simply stand quietly. The pause comes during an invocation usually given by the leader of a local church. Pastors, presidents of congregations and other religious figures ask higher powers to give the council guidance and wisdom. Some seek peace or a blessing over the city.
But a local atheist group wants to put an end to the practice that has been a part of the city’s council meetings for years. Several members of the Western Colorado Atheists have asked the council to eliminate the invocation, arguing the prayers violate the First Amendment and make residents who don’t subscribe to any religious belief feel unwelcome.
“We do feel excluded and marginalized. We wonder who else out there is feeling excluded and marginalized,” said Anne Landman, one of 13 members of Western Colorado Atheists who wrote a letter to the council earlier this month asking for the elimination of the invocation.
In a written response, City Attorney John Shaver told the group he and City Manager Laurie Kadrich are willing to meet with members to discuss their concerns in greater detail. A meeting date has not been set.
Council members expressed a variety of reactions to the atheists’ letter. But a majority indicated they want to retain the invocation, and a few bristled at the urging to do away with it.
“I, for one, am sick and tired of the vocal minority,” said Councilman Doug Thomason, who said he is a Methodist. “I’m no religious fanatic, but this country was founded on Christian principles, and we’ve gone so far away from that that it’s mind-boggling.
“If they choose not to observe the invocation, that’s their prerogative. But they’re not going to infringe upon my rights to hear that invocation.”
Read more here.
[From me]
I’ve got the perfect solution. Rotate an atheist in to pray or whatever they want to call it. They can ask Charles Darwin or Richard Dawkins to bring rational thought to their meeting. 
What do you think?
21 responses so far
I like the rotation idea. They could do some nihilistic message that emphasizes how the meeting is pointless because we’re all just bags of chemicals anyway, and when we die we cease to exist. Seriously, let ‘em say whatever they like and let them have a representative # of “prayers.” Maybe that would stop their whining and the wasteful lawsuits.
Neil’s last blog post..Weekly roundup
I’m not sure about this, but wasn’t Grand Junction one of the places that fought to keep the stone statue of the 10 Commandments? Some communities are more fundamentalist than others, just like some communities have peep shows and massage parlors; it’s a fact of life that residents have to deal with if they want to live in those communities.
I’m not in favor of micro-legislation, or even micro-enforcement, to try and stop determined people from acting out, as long as their actions aren’t too harmful or too egregious. For example, I think Texas should have left the FLDS commune in Eldorado alone. In the case of “official prayer” in Grand Junction, it would be easy enough to circumvent any ordinance by simply claiming that the prayer is said before the council meeting officially starts. The bottom line is, the harm caused by the prayer is minimal (causing non-Christians to feel alienating). Personally, if I lived in Grand Junction, it wouldn’t bother me.
On the other hand, since our legal system is based on case law, I do understand the value of test cases: a ruling in a smaller case can later be used to show precedence in larger cases. If that is the purpose behind the complaint, I would be more in favor of it since I feel that in general, religion should not be officially promoted by government via actions of government officials (emphasis on “officially;” public officials have as much right to practice religion as anyone else, but they don’t have the right to promote their religion to any official status).
In the mean time, maybe they could follow Sunny’s lead and pray for snow! :^)
It occurs to me that Christians might have more of an issue with official prayer, given the quote from Jesus in Mat 6:5-6:
Its interesting that one group seeks to push its “religion” on another by trying to oust public prayer. This atheist group is trying to establish its own religion over another.
Scott’s last blog post..The People Shall be Troubled
A3, Pray for snow?
As a former pastor, I’ve often wondered about prayers like these.
Kevin, just being honest with you. I’ve prayed at football games and then watched as high school kids pushed, shoved, cussed, and fought. And, those where on their best behavior nights!
I’ve prayed at City Council meetings, state Senate meetings, house of representative meetings, and even in the House of Delegates (during my service in Virginia). Then, I sat back and watched those men and women pass laws, rules, and guidelines that I could never support as a pastor! Or, even as a citizen of the city, state, or country.
So, I’m not sure what value those prayers provided. The athletes didn’t live by the words I said. Neither did the elected officials. Sure, I suppose I evoked God’s Name upon the place. But, for what good? For what purpose?
I’m all for praying. I try to do it often. Even though I am no longer a pastor. I just question whether it is more of a formality or are the words heeded? I guess I will leave that up to God. And, pray when invited to do so in a public place.
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..Politics As Usual
Scott,
I’m curious to know: in what way do you see that atheism is a kind of religion?
In any case, I am glad that you agree that the debate is indeed about ‘pushing’ one religion over another. In this instance, the issue is that one religious group, the Christian city councilmen who are holding prayer to begin city council meetings, should not use their public office to ‘push’ their religion on those who want to participate in the city’s affairs and who do not hold the same religious views. Setting aside any legal considerations, it seems like a pretty boorish way to behave. Could you explain how opposing the city councilmen’s behavior could be construed as ‘pushing’ another religion?
Kevin,
You know, as in skiing - as in the Powderhorn
Oops! Sorry, Scott - I didn’t mean to yell, I just messed up the <strong> tag…
As Christians, we should not be so down on atheists.
After all, they are only trying to free themselves from moral obligation.
It was once said, that “atheists don’t find God for the same reason bank robbers don’t find policemen.”
In the end however, they’ll have their day in the light, to explain what they were thinking.
And too, Proverbs 10;18 says it best:
“He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.”
After becoming didillusioned about the loss of our Constitutional rights. a 15 year old girl wrote the following poem:
NEW School prayer :
Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.
If Scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.
Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That’s no offense; it’s a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise.
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all.
In silence alone we must meditate,
God’s name is prohibited by the state.
We’re allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.
They’ve outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the ‘unwed daddy,’ our Senior King.
It’s ‘inappropriate’ to teach right from wrong,
We’re taught that such ‘judgments’ do not belong.
We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.
It’s scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school’s a mess.
So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
Should I be shot; My soul please take!
Amen
Bill,
That statement seems a bit facile and prejudice to me - it seems to presume that, for one thing, atheists all have the same motive: to “hide” from God (which would presume a belief in God, wouldn’t it?). Could you explain your own view of what motivates atheists to doubt the existence of God? You might explain it in a stereotypical fashion: why “all” atheists believe what they do, or you might talk about a range of motivators that you feel are at play. In either case, I would be curious to see your comments.
(cute poem, by the way)
Dear ASK,
What is your favorite hobby or pasttime? In other words…what is the thing or things you look the most forward to?
What are the things you cannot live without..or in other words…would make you sad, IF they were no longer available to partake of or enjoy?
Thanks!
Bill
Bill,
Tai-chi, jazz trumpet, jazz guitar, flight simulators, home brewing, wood working, Linux, computer graphics, and fly fishing are probably my all-time favorite pass-times. There’s no way I have time to do them all at once so I usually end up cycling through a few at a time. Lately, I’ve been playing jazz trumpet in a band (focusing on rhythm-changes solos) and piddling with email servers on Linux (postfix, dovecot, fetchmail, and squirrelmail).
Why do you ask?
Those things are your God
And…you are absolutely FREE (an agent unto yourself) to worship them how and when you will.
Bill,
That reminds me of Pee Wee’s big adventure - when this bubble-gum-chewing airhead was guiding a tour of the Alamo. She started the tour by gathering everyone in the tour together and asking: “Is anyone here from Mexico?” A few people raised their hands. So the bubble-gum-chewing airhead tour guide said: “Well buenos dias!”
:^))
A3,
Be careful. Bill will accuse you of making fun of him!
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..The Oprah Slide
Steve,
Since you are new here are examples of the fun Bill brings:
http://kevinbussey.com/2007/04/03/christians-dont-welcome-this-second-witness-of-the-reality-of-jesus-christ/
http://kevinbussey.wordpress.com/2007/01/20/i-love-mormons/
Bill,
we love you!
Kevin Bussey’s last blog post..Habitat for Humanity Criticized for Planned Parenthood Partnership
Kevin,
I now realize for the first time, who you are, and what you represent.
I’ll take the bait Bill…who is Kevin and who does he represent?
Is it SA-TAN?
M. Steve Heartsill’s last blog post..The Oprah Slide
Bill,
I guess some of us are just a little slower than others. I’ve known right from the get-go that Kevin is a good guy :^)
Steve,
SA-TAN tries to divide Heavenly Father’s children through any means available. He is neither a uniter or peace maker.
So no, I don’t think Kevin is SA-TAN, because he would never stoop that low!.