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	<title>Comments on: Where is grace anymore?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://kevinbussey.com/2008/05/19/where-is-grace-anymore/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/05/19/where-is-grace-anymore/</link>
	<description>confessions of a follower of Jesus Christ struggling to recover from legalism</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 13:03:49 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5</generator>
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		<title>By: Kevin Bussey</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/05/19/where-is-grace-anymore/#comment-7447</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Bussey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 16:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=959#comment-7447</guid>
		<description>Brad,

Thanks so much for your response.  I encourage anyone reading this to check back in the morning.  I have a post based on some thoughts that came from Brad.  I think Brad's story needs to be heard and heard loudly!

&lt;em&gt;Kevin Bussey's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ConfessionsOfARecoveringPharisee/~3/294122810/' rel="nofollow"&gt;ecotheology?&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad,</p>
<p>Thanks so much for your response.  I encourage anyone reading this to check back in the morning.  I have a post based on some thoughts that came from Brad.  I think Brad&#8217;s story needs to be heard and heard loudly!</p>
<p><em>Kevin Bussey&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ConfessionsOfARecoveringPharisee/~3/294122810/' rel="nofollow">ecotheology?</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: brad johnson</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/05/19/where-is-grace-anymore/#comment-7444</link>
		<dc:creator>brad johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 15:01:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=959#comment-7444</guid>
		<description>Hi Kevin--

You asked me an important question...how to show grace...

--collectively, teach your church with this case study.  wrestle with it.  talk about it...do something insane--like send money, make sure bills are being paid, have your members write letters to every family member (and especially to your friend).   sounds like this incident involved a crime/victim.   that victim should be lifted in prayer.  affirmed for the strength to come forward (if that is what happened).   your writing suggests you have a communication gift and bright mind.   use those with your church to bring a collective response from a body/fellowship/local expression of the church.

--long term- suicide will be on this person's mind.  his depression, shame, guilt will deepen as the responses and consequences of sin hit him and those he loves, like a tsunami.   this agonizing process will unfold for the next year---minimally (and for years, if there is prison involved).   settle in for the long haul.   establish a strategy to stay next to this family.  partner with those in his local church who may or may not be doing something.   i assure you he's getting hate mail.  he can't go out of his house without pain;  nor can his family.   make sure they are getting an equal measure of kindness.  staying with them --not just through, but after--the storm is character quaility of perserverance.

--personally, find a way to see this man, pray with him, hold him.   yes, guys can do that.  you don't have to 'fix' anything, nor can you.  long after he's forgotten your words, he will remember you came.   

--a pressing, and oft overlooked aspect of this is financial ruin.   This family needs help.  They will for a year.

--teach:   yes, there are consequences--but Christians are to alleviate burdens, not add to.  I assure you, God doesn't need help in the spiritual realm for us to reap what we sow.  your friend will suffer way more than anyone will ever know.   so, do the outrageous...show the undeserved...THAT is grace.

beyond simple compassion, or sympathy or empathy or generosity...show the outrageous...the stuff that makes the world say:  "Are you freakin crazy?    The guy deserves a bullet, not a house payment"

ahhhh.....if it isn't amazing, it's not grace.  hope this stimulates your thinking and response.

&lt;em&gt;brad johnson's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://bradscotjohnson.blogspot.com/2008/05/do-anything-you-want.html' rel="nofollow"&gt;Do Anything You Want&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Kevin&#8211;</p>
<p>You asked me an important question&#8230;how to show grace&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8211;collectively, teach your church with this case study.  wrestle with it.  talk about it&#8230;do something insane&#8211;like send money, make sure bills are being paid, have your members write letters to every family member (and especially to your friend).   sounds like this incident involved a crime/victim.   that victim should be lifted in prayer.  affirmed for the strength to come forward (if that is what happened).   your writing suggests you have a communication gift and bright mind.   use those with your church to bring a collective response from a body/fellowship/local expression of the church.</p>
<p>&#8211;long term- suicide will be on this person&#8217;s mind.  his depression, shame, guilt will deepen as the responses and consequences of sin hit him and those he loves, like a tsunami.   this agonizing process will unfold for the next year&#8212;minimally (and for years, if there is prison involved).   settle in for the long haul.   establish a strategy to stay next to this family.  partner with those in his local church who may or may not be doing something.   i assure you he&#8217;s getting hate mail.  he can&#8217;t go out of his house without pain;  nor can his family.   make sure they are getting an equal measure of kindness.  staying with them &#8211;not just through, but after&#8211;the storm is character quaility of perserverance.</p>
<p>&#8211;personally, find a way to see this man, pray with him, hold him.   yes, guys can do that.  you don&#8217;t have to &#8216;fix&#8217; anything, nor can you.  long after he&#8217;s forgotten your words, he will remember you came.   </p>
<p>&#8211;a pressing, and oft overlooked aspect of this is financial ruin.   This family needs help.  They will for a year.</p>
<p>&#8211;teach:   yes, there are consequences&#8211;but Christians are to alleviate burdens, not add to.  I assure you, God doesn&#8217;t need help in the spiritual realm for us to reap what we sow.  your friend will suffer way more than anyone will ever know.   so, do the outrageous&#8230;show the undeserved&#8230;THAT is grace.</p>
<p>beyond simple compassion, or sympathy or empathy or generosity&#8230;show the outrageous&#8230;the stuff that makes the world say:  &#8220;Are you freakin crazy?    The guy deserves a bullet, not a house payment&#8221;</p>
<p>ahhhh&#8230;..if it isn&#8217;t amazing, it&#8217;s not grace.  hope this stimulates your thinking and response.</p>
<p><em>brad johnson&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://bradscotjohnson.blogspot.com/2008/05/do-anything-you-want.html' rel="nofollow">Do Anything You Want</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Bussey</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/05/19/where-is-grace-anymore/#comment-7440</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Bussey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 13:01:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=959#comment-7440</guid>
		<description>My friends son told me yesterday his dad is broken.  So I don't think I Corinthians 5 applies here.  I would rather err on the side of grace.

&lt;em&gt;Kevin Bussey's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ConfessionsOfARecoveringPharisee/~3/294122810/' rel="nofollow"&gt;ecotheology?&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My friends son told me yesterday his dad is broken.  So I don&#8217;t think I Corinthians 5 applies here.  I would rather err on the side of grace.</p>
<p><em>Kevin Bussey&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ConfessionsOfARecoveringPharisee/~3/294122810/' rel="nofollow">ecotheology?</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: M. Steve Heartsill</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/05/19/where-is-grace-anymore/#comment-7439</link>
		<dc:creator>M. Steve Heartsill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 13:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=959#comment-7439</guid>
		<description>Kevin,

Unfortunately, all too often in the church, we shoot the wounded rather than tend to their wounds. I have seen it way too much in the churches I have served and attended. I have also felt the arrows of pain shot my way. Those who I thought were friends were no where to be found during those times. Fellow ministers didn't come to my aid, rather they stood off to the side and allowed others to inflict their pain.

Sad, really is. That's not the church Christ created. That's not the church I was called to serve.

I don't find much consolation in the church when you are hurting, whether self-inflicted or inflicted by others. I've come to realize that while the church, her leaders, and her members may not respond appropriately during such times, God never fails. NEVER!

&lt;em&gt;M. Steve Heartsill's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://steveheartsill.blogspot.com/2008/05/successful-edit.html' rel="nofollow"&gt;A Successful Edit&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,</p>
<p>Unfortunately, all too often in the church, we shoot the wounded rather than tend to their wounds. I have seen it way too much in the churches I have served and attended. I have also felt the arrows of pain shot my way. Those who I thought were friends were no where to be found during those times. Fellow ministers didn&#8217;t come to my aid, rather they stood off to the side and allowed others to inflict their pain.</p>
<p>Sad, really is. That&#8217;s not the church Christ created. That&#8217;s not the church I was called to serve.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t find much consolation in the church when you are hurting, whether self-inflicted or inflicted by others. I&#8217;ve come to realize that while the church, her leaders, and her members may not respond appropriately during such times, God never fails. NEVER!</p>
<p><em>M. Steve Heartsill&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://steveheartsill.blogspot.com/2008/05/successful-edit.html' rel="nofollow">A Successful Edit</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: Quinn Hooks</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/05/19/where-is-grace-anymore/#comment-7433</link>
		<dc:creator>Quinn Hooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 04:07:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=959#comment-7433</guid>
		<description>We must remember to pray.

&lt;em&gt;Quinn Hooks's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://sbcghostrecon.wordpress.com/2008/05/19/getting-gored-again/' rel="nofollow"&gt;Getting Gored Again&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We must remember to pray.</p>
<p><em>Quinn Hooks&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://sbcghostrecon.wordpress.com/2008/05/19/getting-gored-again/' rel="nofollow">Getting Gored Again</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: Debbie Kaufman</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/05/19/where-is-grace-anymore/#comment-7420</link>
		<dc:creator>Debbie Kaufman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 19:05:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=959#comment-7420</guid>
		<description>Kevin: I noticed the same thing you did when watching the video and agree that the church should be ministering to the family. Christ's life, death, resurrection, wasn't for those who never sin, but for sin. To give us life, we should be there for those who fall in sin, to ministers, heal, bind the wounds as well as to those who have been sinned against. I'm glad you said it. You are right.

&lt;em&gt;Debbie Kaufman's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ThoughtsOfAChristianWoman/~3/291828591/inspiring-post-from-one-of-our-workers.html' rel="nofollow"&gt;An Inspiring Post From One Of Our  Workers That Illustrates Evanagelism At It's Finest&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin: I noticed the same thing you did when watching the video and agree that the church should be ministering to the family. Christ&#8217;s life, death, resurrection, wasn&#8217;t for those who never sin, but for sin. To give us life, we should be there for those who fall in sin, to ministers, heal, bind the wounds as well as to those who have been sinned against. I&#8217;m glad you said it. You are right.</p>
<p><em>Debbie Kaufman&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ThoughtsOfAChristianWoman/~3/291828591/inspiring-post-from-one-of-our-workers.html' rel="nofollow">An Inspiring Post From One Of Our  Workers That Illustrates Evanagelism At It&#8217;s Finest</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: Phil Hoover</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/05/19/where-is-grace-anymore/#comment-7419</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Hoover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 18:25:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=959#comment-7419</guid>
		<description>Kevin,

I deeply appreciate your heartfelt sorrow for this man and his family.  Yes, the CHURCH must minister to him, and his family. Yes, they are still part of the Body of Christ, and are treasured by God...and God wants to bring healing and restoration to this family.  What this man did affects not only himself, but his family, and his church family.  The "body of Christ" in that locale has taken a beating because of one fallible person's "sin."

The Scriptures remind us that we all have the potential to do the very same things and worse (1 Corinthians 10, Galatians 6)...and that we must "take heed."  

This local congregation needs to "grieve" and "mourn" what has happened...it needs to get down in their "inner being"...and since we aren't there in person...we aren't sure of "all the stuff" that has transpired since the "news hit the fan."

And "grace" never neutralizes consequences...remember what Paul said in Galatians..."we will reap what we sow."  

Even when we've been forgiven.

&lt;em&gt;Phil Hoover's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://philhoover-chicago.blogspot.com/2008/05/hope-merwinhome-with-lord.html' rel="nofollow"&gt;"Hope" Merwin...home with the Lord.&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,</p>
<p>I deeply appreciate your heartfelt sorrow for this man and his family.  Yes, the CHURCH must minister to him, and his family. Yes, they are still part of the Body of Christ, and are treasured by God&#8230;and God wants to bring healing and restoration to this family.  What this man did affects not only himself, but his family, and his church family.  The &#8220;body of Christ&#8221; in that locale has taken a beating because of one fallible person&#8217;s &#8220;sin.&#8221;</p>
<p>The Scriptures remind us that we all have the potential to do the very same things and worse (1 Corinthians 10, Galatians 6)&#8230;and that we must &#8220;take heed.&#8221;  </p>
<p>This local congregation needs to &#8220;grieve&#8221; and &#8220;mourn&#8221; what has happened&#8230;it needs to get down in their &#8220;inner being&#8221;&#8230;and since we aren&#8217;t there in person&#8230;we aren&#8217;t sure of &#8220;all the stuff&#8221; that has transpired since the &#8220;news hit the fan.&#8221;</p>
<p>And &#8220;grace&#8221; never neutralizes consequences&#8230;remember what Paul said in Galatians&#8230;&#8221;we will reap what we sow.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Even when we&#8217;ve been forgiven.</p>
<p><em>Phil Hoover&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://philhoover-chicago.blogspot.com/2008/05/hope-merwinhome-with-lord.html' rel="nofollow">&#8220;Hope&#8221; Merwin&#8230;home with the Lord.</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/05/19/where-is-grace-anymore/#comment-7413</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 15:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=959#comment-7413</guid>
		<description>Kevin,

I have seen the video of the pastor and what he said about the situation.  I understand your frustration with the response, I had the same thoughts as you did. I kept thinking, "What are you doing for him and his family besides allowing him to resign?"  

I thought more and wonder if part of the reason for the hard-line response is because of the failings of the Catholic church in the Priest scandal and the many other times where churches have allowed situations like this to be swept under the rug.  So, my question is, because of the high profile nature of the church is it taking the hard-line response for public perception?  I don't know.  

What I do know is they should do what you say and show the world the right way for God's people to respond in a situation like this to all parties involved.

&lt;em&gt;Chris's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://frostburgpreacher.blogspot.com/2008/05/leaving-frostburg.html' rel="nofollow"&gt;Leaving Frostburg&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,</p>
<p>I have seen the video of the pastor and what he said about the situation.  I understand your frustration with the response, I had the same thoughts as you did. I kept thinking, &#8220;What are you doing for him and his family besides allowing him to resign?&#8221;  </p>
<p>I thought more and wonder if part of the reason for the hard-line response is because of the failings of the Catholic church in the Priest scandal and the many other times where churches have allowed situations like this to be swept under the rug.  So, my question is, because of the high profile nature of the church is it taking the hard-line response for public perception?  I don&#8217;t know.  </p>
<p>What I do know is they should do what you say and show the world the right way for God&#8217;s people to respond in a situation like this to all parties involved.</p>
<p><em>Chris&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://frostburgpreacher.blogspot.com/2008/05/leaving-frostburg.html' rel="nofollow">Leaving Frostburg</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: Bill(cycleguy)</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/05/19/where-is-grace-anymore/#comment-7412</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill(cycleguy)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 15:00:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=959#comment-7412</guid>
		<description>Wow K.  Just read the Tribune's report. My heart dropped into my stomach.  He is in the wrong. Grace needed.  Family is wronged.  Grace needed.  I am a sinner. Grace needed.  We are all sinners. Grace needed. Let's not practice judgment and condemnation. Let's practice grace and forgiveness tempered by loving discipline (is there any other kind?).  But the church must be there for the family (and him).    

Oh btw: I know this is not about you.  But those who know him also need ministered to.  My prayers...since I only know you through our blogs.

&lt;em&gt;Bill(cycleguy)'s last blog post..&lt;a href='http://billgrandi.ovcf.org/wordpress/?p=235' rel="nofollow"&gt;The Church's Worst Danger??&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow K.  Just read the Tribune&#8217;s report. My heart dropped into my stomach.  He is in the wrong. Grace needed.  Family is wronged.  Grace needed.  I am a sinner. Grace needed.  We are all sinners. Grace needed. Let&#8217;s not practice judgment and condemnation. Let&#8217;s practice grace and forgiveness tempered by loving discipline (is there any other kind?).  But the church must be there for the family (and him).    </p>
<p>Oh btw: I know this is not about you.  But those who know him also need ministered to.  My prayers&#8230;since I only know you through our blogs.</p>
<p><em>Bill(cycleguy)&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://billgrandi.ovcf.org/wordpress/?p=235' rel="nofollow">The Church&#8217;s Worst Danger??</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Bussey</title>
		<link>http://kevinbussey.com/2008/05/19/where-is-grace-anymore/#comment-7410</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Bussey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 14:47:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kevinbussey.com/?p=959#comment-7410</guid>
		<description>This is what I would have expected as a response from a church:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-pastor-arrest_12may12,0,7275891.story

&lt;em&gt;Kevin Bussey's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ConfessionsOfARecoveringPharisee/~3/293350265/' rel="nofollow"&gt;Where is grace anymore?&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is what I would have expected as a response from a church:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-pastor-arrest_12may12,0,7275891.story" rel="nofollow">http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-pastor-arrest_12may12,0,7275891.story</a></p>
<p><em>Kevin Bussey&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ConfessionsOfARecoveringPharisee/~3/293350265/' rel="nofollow">Where is grace anymore?</a></em></p>
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