Feb 22 2008
Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing ‘Churches’ in U.S.
The two fastest-growing church bodies in the United States and Canada, according to a newly published report, are ones whose beliefs are known to conflict with traditional Christian teaching.
Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, regarded by many Christians as cults, reported the largest membership increases in a year, according to the National Council of Churches’ 2008 Yearbook of American & Canadian Churches.
Although Jehovah’s Witnesses currently rank 25th in size with over 1.06 million members, they reported a 2.25 percent increase in membership since the publication of the 2007 Yearbook. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – also known as the Mormon church – grew 1.56 percent and is listed by the NCC as the fourth largest “church.”
Notably, however, both Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormon church are not accepted within many Christian circles as part of the larger Body of Christ over a number of controversial beliefs that the two religions hold. Identification of the former religion as Christian, among other controversies, is debated largely due to their rejection of the Trinity, which most Christians regard as a fundamental doctrine. Latter-day Saints, meanwhile, are often criticized for their belief in “divine” books of scripture, aside from the Bible, including the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.
Mormonism was formally listed under “cults and sects” by the Southern Baptist Convention – the largest Protestant denomination in the nation – but was more recently categorized among “newly developed religions” on the North American Mission Board apologetics page.
Read about it here.
[From me]
I wonder why NAMB no longer calls the LDS a cult. Both LDS and JW are cults. There is no evidence that any of their claims are true. The LDS change their theology when it is challenged by the culture. They use plagiarized versions of the KJV of the Bible in their “holy books.” The Jehovah’s Witnesses butcher the Bible with their translation. The realtity is having a relationship with Jesus is the only way to experience abundant life here on earth and in the afterlife.
The truth is that both the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons are more serious about evangelism that the Christian churches. The Christian churches have become more involved in politics and arguments with each other then to look around at our communities and neighbors who are dying and going to spend eternity away from God.
What do you think?
48 responses so far
“The Christian churches have become more involved in politics and arguments with each other then (sic) to look around at our communities and neighbors who are dying and going to spend eternity away from God.”
I think you hit the nail on the head with this one comment, and not just in relationship to the topic of this post. We spend an inordinate amount of time being critical of one another, and of society in general, trying to lobby for changes in the legal system, protest corporations, and to ‘win the country back for God’. Instead, shouldn’t we be loving people, holding one another (Christians) accountable, and witnessing in the manner Jesus taught — one person at a time?
Darryl
What is interesting is that I have seen numerous LDS tv ads that promote family values. That caught my attention because it was a tactic used by many true churches in the past to attract people. It was as if they were trying to make themselves appear more legitimate and more a pat of the main stream of Christianity.
I agree that their focus on winning converts is something we can learn from them.
God created MAN in HIS image. If we are created in his image, then he is a man of body and spirit, because so are we.
See Genesis 1:27
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gen/1/27#27
Jesus Christ was born on this earth in the form of a MAN.
Jesus Christ sits at the right hand to of HIS father.
See Mark 14:62
After the resurrection, Jesus Christ allowed his followers see him (a solid body of flesh and spirit) and to look at the nail prints in HIS hands, before he ascended. HOW could they see a spirit if it did not have a body of flesh surrounnding it?
See Luke 24:39
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/luke/24/39#39
Patrick, I can tell you with love and honor that we as Latter Day Saints do not desire to be “part of the main stream of Christianity” as you have prescribed.
We rather choose to be in the world (reference Darryl’s comments) but not part of it…
See John 17 (varous verses)
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/17/5-6,9,11-16,18,21,23-25#5
And the scriptures above may stand alone as the reason for the growth in the Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.
TRUE followers of Jesus Christ strive to act like and carry themselves like Jesus Christ. Anyone can call themselves a Christian, but as we know few actually show the true fruits thereof. The Pharisees tried to ensare Jesus (as it seems many on this site do as they falseley judge others) when he told them that “many are called but few are chosen.”
See Matthew 22:14
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/22/14#14
See John 8:7
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/8/7#7
For an understanding of the restored truth to the earth, you may want to look at this:
http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-restoration-of-truth/god-is-your-loving-heavenly-father
Have a wondereful day
See John 8:7
Bill,
Great to have you back.
Bill,
Us Christians have no problem with the humanity of Jesus, but we rightly believe that He was God. We believe Jesus is the God-Man. The LDS fail to believe this and in so doing fail know Him at all. I find it strange you mention the pharisees which was a group who was seekign to justify themselves before God by their works as opposed to Christ’s work on their behalf. They failed to recognize who Jesus really was although He stood right in front of them. Like the Pharisees the LDS also seek to justify themselves by their works and fail to recognize who Jesus really is. He is God.
2 Corinthians 1: 1-2
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_cor/1/2-3#2
Key words are AND & THE
“Grace be to you and peace from God Our Father…A-N-D…from the Lord Jesus Christ.”
Blessed be God, even T-H-E Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort.”
Does Jesus sit beside HIMSELF (at the right hand of God)???
Does the Holy Ghost also sit beside HIMSELF on the left side???
The truth is…God the Father, Jesus Christ (HIS son) and the Holy Ghost are three (3) individual personages
But don’t take my word for it on this important this subject…READ ABOUT IT BELOW. Rather than guess, project, and still really not know, simply afford yourself time to just read and ponder…and then ask the Lord to manifest to you by the power of the Holy Ghost Holy if it is true or false???
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=d2552bce258f5110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1
Hi Kevin…I’ve missed you and pray that you and your precous family are doing well!
Take care!
Bill
Bill,
Thanks we are doing great. I hope your team beats Memphis tomorrow. I like your B-ball coach just not your football coach.
Thanks Kevin,
We are all hoping Bruce will find a way to beat the Tigers down in Memphis tomorrow night. It sounds like ESPN Game Day will be carrying the coverage from Memphis all day long. I’ll probably have to take a nap before that late game finally airs ha/ha.
Your cupboard is now well stocked in Tuscaloosa. It should be strong enough to take St. Nick to the National Championship real soon…but…then you have to begin worrying about hoe long he will remain in Alabama…the same thing many of us are fretting about Bruce Pearl. Let’s face it…there are certainly more glorious places in the U.S. than Tuscaloosa or Knoxville.
I’m not going to enter a debate. However I think there may be some in the JW and LDS churches who have truly believed on the Lord Jesus Christ but attend church there, because they have no idea what they believe. Stands to reason when there are many in Baptist churches who don’t know or care.
The LDS and JW do seemingly have more of a zeal for evangelism. But seemingly stems from a form of legalism and “having to.” The Christians I know who understand grace and love however have as much zeal, if not more.
My question is how can we be so dead when we’ve been so well fed?
We’re too fat and happy.
Get busy….
It’s Every Tongue, Tribe & Nation…or bust!!!
Andrew
Titus 2:13
Hi Bill…
I can see that you are a Mormon…
I have always had pretty good experiences with Mormons, most have been polite, and very kind people…(a few exceptions)
I can tell you are proselytizing for Mormonism, or at least are sharing Mormon teachings as truth…
What I had a difficulty understanding is this in from you wrote…
Do you believe that Jesus was first a man, that became a God?
If this is the “restored truth” then when was the truth that Jesus was God before he came in the flesh lost?
As far as I know there were thousands of prophecies that Jesus was coming, and hundreds that testified that He had already came… and none of them that even remotely describe him being only a “man’ that became a God… but rather showing from generation to genetration that He was God…the Alpha, and Omega, with no beginning and no end…
As far as the historic christian faith is concerned, Jesus is, was, and always will be God, with no beginning and no end, and that there is no other God besides Him…
Since Jesus said this of Himself as well, then it is true isn’t it?
How then can Jesus be a man that became a God, and still be God before time began by whose mouth the heavens and earth were created…?
It seems to me like the God you speak of has the same name, but cannot be the same God that has revealed Himself throughout generations, whose word will not, has not nor never can pass away…
Thoughts?
Avery,
This should be fun!
Check out:
I love Mormons
Mormon and Christians unite?
Avery. Thank you for your king words. Before I answer your questions, please allow me to ask one of you if I may…
Where do you believe you were before being born onto this earth?
Sure Bill… I will answer this in a couple of statements, because at first glance there seems to be only one answer…
A context…
I did not exist at all before being born…
I wasn’t a soul, a spirit, or a body…
I wasn’t dust, or particles, or anything…
The day I was born I was born because God took the seed of my mother, and father, and gave me life…(who were seeds of their mothers and fathers back to Adam who came from dust into which god breathed life, and created man from his very words…), again as Jesus said, and scripture foretells and forthtells us…
Now that isn’t a complete explanation however…
Because before I was born, I was conceived in the mind, intellect, and creativity of God…
He knew I would exist, (and for some reason still chose to give life to my soul, spirit, and body, through the seed of my parents, who came from dust, which came from the very word of Jesus Christ and leapt into existence…)
So to be fair, I will answer that with…
I didn’t exist at all before I was born…
However God in infinite wisdom and knowledge knew that I would be born, and created me from the very words of his mouth through the seed of my parents and his divine creativity, intellect and power…
Hey Bill.. be patient with me I’m a busy man….
I have 3 jobs, 4 kids, 2 dogs, and 2 cats…
I’ll come back and answer as oft as I can, but I am really interested in this conversation… and I won’t be able to devote large amounts of time to it…
So we will have to string it along… thanks for sharing…
Avery
Bill,
So I take it you debating the trinity now? Yes, I believe in God is triune. I believe He eternally exists in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I agree with Jesus than He is God and that when we’ve seen the Son we’
ve seen the Father. Your theological issues are not with Baptists or protestants but are with Christ Himself.
I would suggest you ponder and pray through John 1. That texts alone is enough leave the theology of the LDS in shambles. I don’t mean to be crude, but I don’t feel God takes heresy lightly, so neither do I. I pray God leads you in the truth about His Son.
Avery…thanks for your reply. It sounds like you are well on your way to being a good Mormon ha/ha. 4 kids (W-O-W)…you are a great procreator! You did not mention a wife. I hope she is still alive, and I hope you will soon be able to learn that you can be sealed to she and your precious children for all eternity. Isn’t it sad that we work so hard in our marriages and as parents, only to then forfeit it all at death…which is what the world seems to teach?
Read here: http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/membership-in-the-church/temples-and-family-history
Now for your answer. For many years (both as a child and as an adult) I often wondered where I was before I was born. That question asked to my parents, Sunday School teachers and others, always ended with the same answer you have graciously provided.
They would say…”you were nowhere before you were born.”
When I would look out there at the vastness of space, with all of God’s endless and beautiful creations, it was difficult for me to believe that I did not exist prior to earth life.
Therefore, I was NEVER satisfied with the their answers, and I KNEW there was more for me to learn. (By the way..I was a dedicated Southern Baptist for many many years)
I could try and explain a lot of things to you, but maybe it would be better if you just read it for yourself, and then pray to Heavenly Father asking Him in faith, to let you know by the power of the Holy Ghost if what I share is true:
Click here: http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/heavenly-father-s-plan-of-salvation/you-lived-with-god
Well…I pray you will get some rest in the midst of all those jobs, and that you will have a super weekend!
Take care!
Bill
That’s just spin. If you go to the actual NAMB Apologetics site it actually says: New Religions and Cults
“This section surveys newly developed religions and cults (from approximately the last two hundred years) that disagree with the traditional Christian understanding of God and Jesus Christ.”
And it includes Mormons as well as every other creative twist on the truth of Christianity, such as JWs, etc.
Cole,
Who made NAMB the world authority on another’s beliefs?
On their site (NAMB) they claim allegiance to the Southern Baptist denomination…yet…there may be other mainstream Christian denominations who differ.
The Southern Baptist denomination cannot seem to get along with each other and/or decide what it is that they exactly believe (as eveidenced by the great fighting and internal split amongst their ranks) and yet they are trying to dictate what others should belive???
One striking thing that immediately stands out is their usage of a cross. A cross was the prescribed execution device for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Yet, we KNOW HE lives and is not dead…so…why do they centralize something which represents HIS death…which was only the beginning, NOT the end of the story???
Bill…
Thanks for your “answer”… though I am not sure what it has to do with what we were talking about …
To be candid I don’t appreciate a “bait and switch”…
I thought we were talking here… but I’ll forgive you… you seem like a nice fellow and I’ll give you the benefit of doubt that you weren’t intentionally dodging the questions…
The scripture declares a day when true worshipers will worship God in “Spirit” and in “Truth”…
Are we to rely on “feelings” for truth…
That guy who “felt” like a ship parked behind the moon was going to take them to paradise and convinced all those people to srink poisonous kool-aid in order to board the ship had them convinced as well…
Now I am by nature not a skeptic..
I genuinely believe and hope for the best in all people…
I have however been filled by the Spirit of the Living God, and He is the Spirit of Truth…
He is telling me that the stuff your teaching doesn’t come from Him…
He has His word .. the word of the prophets and the testimony of scriptures and His own beloved Son to back it up…
He has also warned me from the day He came to dwell inside of me not to believe every Spirit but to test the Spirits to see whether or not they come from Him…
Now Bill…
Am I to throw away the testimony of scripture, the testimony of Jesus, the testimony of the Holy spirit for my own personal feelings?
Should I go against the scripture and the Spirit of God and follow after another God that I have not known as the scripture warns not to do?
Bill …
I have prayed for God’s Spirit to reveal the truth to me, in fact He is the one who asked me to reply to you …
Are your “feelings” or “burnings in the bosom” from truth based on the evidence that God has given us in the scriptures, “to grow in, so that we might not be led astray, so that we may know the truth and the truth set us free, etc.” , or is it possible that it is false…
After all.. even more than feelings, Muhammed had a visitation with an angel of “light”, an even greater “physical manifestation” than a burning bosom, if you will… who told him of things that came from God… do you deny Muhammed had spoken with god because of his experience…
I certainly do… because the Spirit of God who dwells within me and has testified concerning Himself in the holy Scriptures denies it…
Bill… sir with all due respect… what you are teaching doesn’t come from either God, or the Holy Testimony of Jesus Christ as found in the scriptures, nor is it the Holy Spirit of Christ that is the Spirit of truth….
I am sorry if that is offensive to you, and I know it is a painful statement, because your faith rests on what you feel is correct…
Sir, I want for you to know God, know truth, and
Where then does this teaching come from?
Bill,
Is salvation by faith alone?
Avery,
Thanks so much for your comments.
I have no qualms with you or your beliefs, and with so much wickedness in the world today, it is refreshing to talk with a man of God.
We (as Mormons) believe that ALL are free (have liberty) to worship as they please.
I can only tell you that I had a testimony of Jesus Christ long before joining the Latter Day Saint Church. There however, I was/am enlightened to eternal truths which only build upon/strengthen those truths I learned in thr Baptist Church.
The best way I can describe it would be to say…if I had never taken a cruise on Royal Caribbean, then I would think that a rusty old freighter was first class travel.
I believe God lives, and that HIS son Jesus Christ is a separate man, and that the Holy Ghpst is likewise a separate entity…ALL working for the same purpose of bringing man to immortality and eternal life.
Now…I have more than feelings. I have sen the miracles of the restored gospel, which was long before prophecied to be reestablished on the earth in the last days.
Let me ask you…do you feel that ALL protestant Christian churches (Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Catholic etc. etc. etc) are true?
Do you suppose the ancient Roman Church could have infiltrated the modern day churches and corrupted or diluted the truth? Read here:
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/12/the_emergent_ta.html
I’m only curious to learn HOW God can allow so many variations of His teachings, and they are all true but the The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints???
Kevin…ooops…I just saw your question. Sorry!
That would depend on your definition of salvation…or in othr words, which part of God’s kingdom you choose to go to.
My answer is contained within the link below about eternal reward and degrees of glory…as taken from the KJV:
http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/heavenly-father-s-plan-of-salvation/heaven-and-eternal-reward
Bill,
What do you believe in your own words?
Bill to be frank and answer your questions I think this will be helpful to you…
I do not believe that all members of the “protestant faith” have the truth, and I am not naive enough to assume that the Catholic church hasn’t changed the truth in some ways… of course they have, and so has the Mormon church, and The Jehovahs witnesses, or the general philosophy of the world that denies the truth……however,
I think there is a myth that you may have alluded to in your response, that God’s word is somehow hidden, or somehow unprotected, or that we somehow cannot know the truth… because it is washed away in error… that would make God a liar… or perhaps that only the Mormon church has the whole “recovered” truth…
It is written and has been declared that God’s word is not, and cannot be bound, nor has He hidden it where it cannot be found… it is near you…
To further expound this…
Let me explain…
Deception means in its essence that those who are deceived do not know they are deceived…
Decpetion means that those who are deceived believe that they in fact are not deceived…
Deception is walking in other than the truth…
If the Spirit of God is dwelling in a human… then they are walking in truth… and free from deception…
That means simply that when a man is filled with the Spirit of God… they know the truth … and no longer walk in the darkness of deception…
Deception belongs to such things as the teachings of men and angels, that are no more than lies intended to ensnare humanity…
While many throughout the generations have tried to promise “enhanced” spiritual, theological, etc, planes of thought… it is merely an even more seductive form of deception…
A Christian knows the difference…
A Christian knows that not all who profess Christ, but may attend church, or be religious, or claim to be on a higher spiritual plane, are merely walking in darkness…
The apostle John, who walked with Jesus Christ, talked with Him, ate with Him, and lived with Him as an eyewitness on earth for many years sauid this in truth…
John prophesied in the spirit about the last days… and his testimony is true… as well as the testimony of others…
That many false prophets, and false Christ’s would arise and perform many signs and wonders… decieving even the elect of God, if it were possible…
But it isn’t possible…
If the Spirit of God dwells in a man no amount of human teaching, deception, philosophy, or even doctrines of demons, will decieve these…
They know the truth, and it has set them free…
Thanks Bill for the conversation…
Kevin,
I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. I believe he has an immortal body of flesh and spirit. I believe that there are several degrees of glory, and unless we accept HIS atonement (sacrafice for sins), we can in no wise return to live with him nor His Heavenly Father and our Heavenly Father in the highest of those kingdoms…which the KJV describes as the Celestial Kingdom (in my Father’s house are many manisons..and I go to prepare a place for you).
I believe we are saved by grace, and nothing else can save us (take us back to the presence of God). But which kingdom of salvation we attain, will be commenserate upon what we do after accepting HIS crucifixion and resurrection. In other words…if you (after being saved) live the rest of your days trying to emulate Jesus Christ, by walking the same path, you would get a higher degree (reward) than I would if I claimed to be a Christian…but…never did anything to better my time here on erath…and especially if I failed to have charity (the pure love of Christ) toward others. That is what it means by “faith without works is dead.” I cannot expect nor would I have a right to get the same reward as you might get, if I did nothing to earn more. TRUE FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST follow Christ period.
Once saved always saved is true (to an extent), but W-H-E-R-E a person will sownd eternity will be determined by their amount of faith. True faith means we endure in gospel principles to the end. Lip service is not enough to reach the top.
All of this is contingent upon being Baptized by someone who has authority from God to do so. He restored HIS church to the earth, and restored the Priesthood which was taken from the earth during the dark ages (when thousands of false churches were formed) and when apostasy thrived.
Bill,
Grace means we don’t deserve what we get. Then why do Mormons believe you have to work in order to go to heaven?
YKevin,
You are exactly right. There is nothing we can do for ourselves to gain it…excpet accept the grace of gift of the atonement.
But is that all???
Have we reached the pinnacle once we accept that gift?
Is our mission accomplished.
Baptism is only a window, which leads us on a path in a direction either closer to him or further away.
Our time here on earth is to be tried and tested (as it was for Jesus who was tempted) to see what we will do. (Mortality to immortailty)
In other words…will we continue to follow Jesus Christ in actions or in word only. He suffered the trials of life, unmentioable pain in the Garden of Gethsemane, hung and bled on the cross…and endured to his final breath.
Bill,
One can debate faith and works all day but if your faith is in a Jesus contrived by Joseph smith that is not God …as opposed to the 100 % God /100% man –Jesus of the Bible …who bore the full wrath of God for us on a bloody cross and rose from the dead 3 days later for our justification…then you may as well be putting your faith in a hula hoop.
And no…SBC certainly do not have the corner market on all things right and good but they do have a solid understanding on who Jesus is.
Thanks Josh.
I feel better now, knowing the SBC has finally reached an agreement.
Just for Josh. Please DO NOT read this unless you are Josh.
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/12/the_emergent_ta.html
Bill,
What is wrong with emerging churches?
Sorry to weigh in on this so late in the discussion, but I wanted to offer a few reasons why, regarding trinity, I think that the JWs & LDS both have a stronger biblical case in claiming separate Beings than the orthodox view has claiming a triune Being. There are only a few verses in the New Testament which might be understood to support the concept of trinity, the strongest of which, 1Jo 5:7-8, is not found in its entirety in the original Alexandrian manuscripts (a little more on that below). On the other hand, there are several dozens of verses that make it clear that the NT authors (with the possible exception of the author of The Gospel According to John (who not only has a bit if a Gnostic overtone, but the earliest known usage of John is among Gnostic circles).
The KJV is largely based on Erasmus’ Bible which in tern, was based on a later (and somewhat modified) collection of manuscripts: the Textus Receptus. The NIV is based on a version of manuscripts, the Alexandrian manuscripts, that are hundreds of years older and closer to the original autographs.
1Jo 5:7-8 (KJV) says:
1Jo 5:7-8 (NIV) says:
Note the absence of any reference to the trinity in the much older, more authentic manuscripts.
A3,
John 1:1-2
John 1:14
Jesus and the “Word” are one in the same. John says the Word dwelt among us.
The NIV is a phrase by phrase translation. I have some issues with it in regards to studying. The NASV is a much better study translation but harder to read.
Kevin,
The NASB is also based on the Alexandrian texts, and as such, 1Jo 5:7-8 is almost identical to NIV - here is the NASB translation:
As I agreed earlier, there are a few verses that might be interpreted to support the trinity, but there are dozens that preclude that interpretation:
1Th 1:10; Gal 1:1 - God, the Father, raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus was dead, God was alive.
Phi 2:9 - God exalted Jesus - God exalted God?
Mat 27:46 and Mar 15:34 - God cannot forsake God, therefore if God forsook Jesus, then Jesus is not God.
Joh 10:17 — The Father loves Jesus not because the Father is Jesus, but because of Jesus’ act.
… and many (many!) more.
If one believes that the entire Bible is the literal Word of God, then one can’t simply ignore (or maybe one can!) the plethora of statements that show clearly that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit must be different entities, while at the same time interpreting the few vague statements like the ones in John, as support for the doctrine of trinity. There are a few things consider when interpreting John 1:
First, the opening of John can be seen as sort of a Hellenization of Jesus. In Greek mythology, “logos” could be translated as “word” or “discourse” but is best translated in this context as “the way of nature,” “wisdom”, or “reason” - the term “logos” carries all of these connotations. As just one of many examples, Heraclitus of Ephesus used the word, “logos,” some 600 years before “John” to describe his concept of the regularity with which the universe operates. (the universe was a divine machine and Heraclitus credited the logos, literally “the logic of things” as the ultimate rationale which secretly operated the universe and the heavens above. Johns message was to those pagans who would have understood logos to be the driving force in the universe.
Now, considering only a literal interpretation of the Bible, Joh 1 never says that that the Word and the Father are the same being. He only says that 2 Beings, God and the Word (Joh 1:2) , were together from the beginning, and that the Word was a God too. The Word can’t be with God if the Word and God are one and the same Being (unless God is beside himself… just kidding…). Further, “John” says that the Word came from God. One entity cannot come from himself. So from the beginning there were 2 gods: The Father, and the Word which was really Jesus as we discover in Joh 1:14. Then, 4 verses later in Joh 1:18, we see: “No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.” The “God the One and Only” and the Father are clearly 2 different Beings.
It’s curious how church doctrine can outweigh what’s actually written in the Bible, even among those who believe that the Bible is the literal Word of God
A3,
Genesis 1:26
“Us” gives from the beginning that there was more to God than just the Father.
Kevin has asked “what is wrong with emergent churches?”
I can only say that Adolf Hitler had to first desensitize Germany before he could launch his unthinkable deeds.
Socialism is a one world society devoid of God, and cannot begin to thrive until people are brainwashed to think that what they do is acceptable to the majority. Once they are the majority, the false things they believe and spread become a desensitized norm.
It was too late to change the beliefs older established adults, so Hitler went after the hearts and minds of youth, who were looking for gratification and sensationalism.
The same thing (with Satan’s help) is happening to the youth of today, as mainstream churches have gone away from gospel principles, and have replaced them with mosh pits, hard rock music, piercings, tattoos and the like. It’s not that God does not love those young people, but the problem is that they are not worshipping the Lord Jesus Christ. Instead, they are worshipping false ideaologies…which make them feel good.
What was once deplorable in the eyes of God (including sex outside of marriage), has now become acceptable…but…it’s another of Satan’s deceptions, and I suspect it all rolls back to “filthy lucre.”
In other words…do these new churches really believe the false things they are teaching…or…is it just a way to keep the $$$ coming in???
Here is a good example of the problem:
http://www.therefinersfire.org/emergent_church.htm
Bill,
Not every emerging church is the same. There are good ones and bad ones just as there are good and bad traditional churches.
Style doesn’t matter to God. It is a person’s heart. I’ll take a mosh pit and tattoos from a follower of Jesus who loves God and lives under his grace than a Suit and Tie or Dress wearing person who looks good on the outside but their heart if full of deceit, gossip, slander, anger, hate, lies, adultery and pride.
Kevin,
I agree (to an extent), but shouldn’t these young people be taught TRUE GOSPEL PRINCIPLES established by God?
In Joel 1:14, we are commanded to hold a solemn assembly.
Can you imagine the look on the face of Jesus if HE were to walk into some of the churches nowadays? Better yet, do you think “business as suual” would continue if he did???
I think a lot of people would fall to their knees in shame. Well except Huck…who would pitch the Savior a guitar and ask him to join in ha/ha.
And by the way Kevin…for all the many times you have called my church a cult, what makes the churches (plural) you now defend more acceptable to God???
How many more versions of a once unshakable gospel principles are yet to come?
Bill,
I don’t know about every church in the emerging arena. But to lump Dan Kimball and Erwin McManus in a group with the LDS is wrong. Both of them are Godly men and I’ve learned a lot from their books and ministry.
What makes a service “solemn?” Your solemn may be different than someone else.
Who are Erwin McManus and Dan Kimball, and who lumped them in with any group??? This is a tricky spin…but…LDS did not write the articles (Baptist’s did) I have mentioned in #’s 30 & 36 of this entry. Likewise, nobody has been lumped here to my knowledge.
Kevin, I proposed a simple question to you. Don’t you think the unshakable and true GOSPEL PRINCIPLES of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, should be taught…and if they are not… then wouldn’t one have to consider them (emerging churches) a cult…which is what you have repeatedly called my church.
Bill,
They were mentioned in the link you posted.
I think “THE GOSPEL” should never change because it doesn’t. However methods have to change in order to reach new generations.
Kevin,
With all seriousness, what are those methods to reach new generations?
As Satan and his host of false players continue to destroy families one person at a time, there are (amongst several) lights in the darkness which continue to stand for solid gospel principles.
The Family: A Proclamation to the World
The First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.
All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.
In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshiped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize his or her divine destiny as an heir of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.
The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’s eternal plan.
Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalms 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, to teach them to love and serve one another, to observe the commandments of God and to be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.
The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.
We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.
We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.
This proclamation was read by President Gordon B. Hinckley as part of his message at the General Relief Society Meeting held September 23, 1995, in Salt Lake City, Utah.
Bill,
Simplifying the church and not having services every night of the week is one way. One of the problems of the church is it has become too busy. No one has time to spend with their families. Another way is to use contemporary music, videos, drama and other ways to make the message clear to this generation.
But the main thing is to be salt and light in a world of sin. That means spending time with neighbors and living life together.
Kevin,
“Living life together?” Is this sort of like Hillary Clinton’s book entitled “It Takes A Village”…which is nothing more than a socialist propoganda ploy designed to cease God’s plan of procreation by placing everyone in communes as equals???
That sounds very Orwellian to me
Kevin,
I believe you once told me you were a Baptist pastor…and I truly admire that.
Now however, you seem to be a defendant of these “Emerging Churches” (mentioned in #’s 21 & 36) which appear to be going away from mainstream gospel principles.
Are you a proponent of the song “Imagine” written by John Lennon???
Bill,
As I said before, there are churches in every vein that are orthodox in their teaching and some that are not. Not every “emerging” church is bad.
Where do you get the idea I would live by John Lennon?
As far as living life together, believers had better learn to get along because we will spend a lot of time in Heaven together.
Of course you LDS’ers can always chose to live on another planet!
Kevin,
If this is to be taken literally, then it is more reason to conclude that there were more then one individual Being (vs. a single triune Being) in the beginning.
Two gigantic thumbs up! Good stuff!
Somehow I just can’t conceive of a God who created the universe (pause for a moment to take in how unfathomably enormous the universe is, and how tiny the Earth is in comparison), who prefers bell bottoms over baggy pants or who likes the music of Frank Sinatra better than the music of Snoop Dogg.
10-out-of-10 on the tolerance scale!