Dec 13 2007
Imagine no religion
[From Courant]
The sturdy white sign in Rockville’s Central Park asking passers-by to “Imagine No Religion” has generated some calls, a few of them angry, to town hall. There have also been calls to local clergymen and discussion in businesses along Rockville’s West Main Street.
The sign — some call it a billboard — was erected on Dec. 1 by the Connecticut Valley Atheists, and as of Thursday was the only display erected in the town’s center to mark the holiday season, aside from a Christmas tree just across from the town hall and some garland and white lights wrapped around light poles.
The three words on the sign are drawn from the John Lennon song “Imagine.”
Read about it here.
[From me]
I’m not religious. My faith is having a relationship with God. So imagining no religion is no problem. However, imagine no Christianity. Imagine how terrible life would be:
- no hope
- no faith based organizations helping during disasters
- think about all of the hospitals that wouldn’t have been started
- no great schools and colleges
- no reason to live
- no reason to look to the future
- no afterlife
What do you think?
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Kevin,
What is your definition of “religion?” Are you redefining it to mean something other than the generally accepted definitions?
What about the other religions that offer hope, faith, belief in an afterlife, etc., to their believers? If we are only imagining life without Christianity, other religions would still be available options.
A final thought: even if the hope, faith, etc. are comforting, what if they are baseless? George Bernard Shaw said: “The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.”
Oops – sorry. it’s hard to tell from the formatting but “generally accepted definitions” is a clickable link.
The sentiment of the song is to just imagine if all the manmade divisions of our world didn’t exist. I’m not sure that Christians or Atheists (or any other religious leanings for that matter) have a market on the absence of things that prejudice us.
Love the new digs by the way.
Benjie
Right on, Kevin!
That billboard has a photo of the World Trade Center. It’s nice to see that the atheists cited above equate all religion with murder.
I do not challenge their right to express the view. I do not challenge their right to have a billboard in a public forum. I do not challenge that their billboard is protected speech. I DO think that their message adds nothing to a dialogue and is the rhetorical equivalent of monkeys flinging their poo against people of all faith. I DO think they are a bit too enamored with John Lennon.
Kevin has done a nice job of both yielding to their argument and then distinguishing it. Kevin’s response appears to be, “I agree, religion is bad but I don’t have religion, I’ve got Jesus-ism. Jesus-ism is “true religion/faith/what-have-you”. As A3 (a commentator whom I have tremendous respect for) has noted, Jesus-ism looks a lot like religion to an outside observer. So now we are left disputing definitions about what is “true” religion and what is not.
For example, I detest the “more people have been murdered in the name of God than anything else” argument. Likewise, I suspect that most atheists would strongly disagree that Stalin is the poster child for atheism. Stalin was not a “true” atheist anyone? Comparing bodycounts probably doesn’t lead to a worthwhile dialogue.
In short, I think I think the atheists above have set up a billboard that is similar to a Mother’s day billboard posting pictures of the unborn with a message like, “Tired of all the nuisance children running around? Thank an atheist for abortion.”
Religion has flaws by the truckload and they should be discussed. I’m not sure that the billboard shown invites a discussion.
Kevin, the title of your blog indicates that you are perhaps trying not to behave like a Pharisee and that you may have been even worse in the past.
I’m going to gently nudge you here and suggest that from someone from the outside looking in that the tone of your comments (the bullet list in particular) shows a staggering narrow-mindedness that hardly does service to someone proclaiming to be ‘recovering’. You may think that the ugly side of the Pharisees was their blind following of rules but another, perhaps more harmful aspect, was that they lacked an ability to see beyond their own beliefs.
I’m not from America and I have to say that the general consensus of opinion is that America lacks an ability to try to understand people different from herself. This is probably totally unjustified with respect to the majority of the population of America but it’s people like you (and especially the policy-makers with similar attitudes to yours) who are giving your country this bad reputation.
Now, here’s a suggestion; if you want to truly be a recovering Pharisee then I suggest you try abstaining from strongly-held opinions for a little while. Try listening to what other people have to say. Try to put yourself in their shoes. Drop the arrogance. Get your Bible out and read all the red-letter text and try to live by the example set by the man you claim to be a follower of.
I’d like to see your next post entitled “My name is Kevin Bussey and I haven’t expressed an opinion or judged anyone for 48 hours.”
Another suggestion would be to try to argue the case for something you don’t believe in. Others do it all the time. It’s called critical thinking. Empathy won’t put your soul in jeopardy.
Anyway, sorry for the rant. I’m sure you’re a great guy but that bullet list needed a bullet
Damian,
I have no opinion on your response.
Contrition is not an opinion.
Damian,
Seriously, what do you want from me? I’m opinionated for sure. However, I allow comments and ask after every post, “what do you think?” I have been corrected by my friends Ask and Atheist, Francoise and other non-believers and they have been right. Monk in Training, Texas in Africa and other more moderate believers have stretched my thinking too.
I’m a work in progress.
Kevin,
You ask what I think… I think that the sun shining between the WTC looks like a cross…
Damian,
That’s some rather judemental statements you make towards Kevin. Strongly held opinions does not a pharisee make. I have some very stongly held opinions, but they are more like personal convictions. They have come after a lifetime of trial and error; not on a whim to make others angry at me, or to downplay others’ opinions.
I think that as the owner of this blog, Kevin has the right to express whatever he wants to express, in whatever way he wants to express it. Your criticism of that is a little heavy handed. That, however, is a weakly held personal opinion.
Do you genuinely think that non-Christians have “no hope” and “no reason to live”? Can you comprehend how mind-bogglingly silly those statements are?
Look around you. Go find a non-Christian and ask them why they haven’t topped themselves yet.
You, my friend, are either pig-ignorant or deliberately antagonistic. And if antagonism is your shtick then I invite you to consider whether polarising people on common issues for the sake of the warm glow you get when looking at your stats is worth the price.
Damian,
With all due respect, how many times have you been on here? I am never antagonistic. If I offended you I’m sorry.
This is a place for conversation. Sometimes I’m wrong (maybe most of the time) and sometimes I’m right.
Please stay around and add to the discussion.
OK, Kevin, in the interested of conversation; Do you genuinely think that non-Christians have “no hope” and “no reason to live”? Please explain.
Damian,
From my view, I can’t imagine living without the hope I have in my faith.
What do you live for? No judging just wondering.
I live to enjoy the company of family and friends. I live to discover new and amazing things (through a telescope or microscope or even out in the garden). I live to share ideas in my community and to gain happiness through other people’s happiness. I live to love.
I’m finding that I make more of my time here on earth now that I no longer believe that there is another life around the corner. Previously I lived like I was a renter but now I feel I actually own my life.
I feel sadness that this life will someday end but I feel greater sadness that for many people in the world their lives will be short and filled with suffering. It brings me great happiness to ease the suffering of other people and animals.
Strangely enough, the sadness I feel when a loved one dies is exactly the same sadness I felt when I was convinced that they were going to heaven.
I feel sadness and anger when I see people sitting smugly on what they perceive as the only revealed truth who are not content to keep their beliefs personally but wish to impose them onto other people – sometimes even causing suffering. The current undercurrent of homophobia within Christianity is a classic example.
I could go on but I suspect you are already reasonably aware of what non-Christians get out of life because these feelings and desires are almost ubiquitous.
In all of your conversations with A3 and others who visit here who aren’t Christians did you really think that they came across as people with no hope or reason to live?
Rick, you say that “strongly held opinions do not a Pharisee make”. I have no problem with strongly held opinions as long as they are well-considered opinions.
Weber’s definition of a Pharisee includes “…and whose pretensions to superior sanctity led them to separate themselves from the other Jews.”
It is this pretension of superior sanctity that I’m highlighting here. Statements like “no hope” and “no reason to live” fall blatantly into this category. This is classic in-group, out-group stuff here.
Damian,
I would like to come to Kevin’s defense. Believe me, he and I have strikingly different viewpoints on some issues, yet I continue to be both welcomed and encouraged to post here. This is especially important to me, as I have been asked to leave many conservative Christian blogs.
I submit that Kevin’s faith is such apart of his world view that he simply can’t understand life without it, and it seems a cold and hopeless place for him. I can tell you that his heart is to help people, as yours seems to be as well.
Yes, I understand your perception of “no hope” and “no reason to live” fitting into the “in group” / “out group” thinking, but Kevin is seriously trying to learn, and doesn’t mean to come across that way, when text on screen seems to be that.
Care to stick around a while and see how this lil community functions?
Hi MIT and thank you.
I’m always up for constructive conversations about issues and am willing to do so with this issue. I’ve asked a couple of times for Kevin to justify the statement about “no hope” and “no reason to live” with regard to observations of non-Christians he comes into contact with as well as observations of the world in general. I’ve also given examples of where my life contains hope and a reason to live. All I’ve got back as far as a response so far is that he can’t imagine living without his faith.
Now, I came across as pretty grumpy and I make no apologies for it because this kind of puerile attitude towards people not in one’s in-group is, quite frankly, really annoying. It smacks of the good old days where people used to tell themselves that black people had no souls which lead to any number of atrocities. I challenge it.
So, once again, I ask Kevin to carefully consider the items in that bullet list and try to imagine different people’s perspectives on life and then give good justification for those statements.
Damian,
Fair enough. I look forward to learning from each other.
I think, Damian, that Kevin is inviting discussion on how we infidels see the world,and how we act in accordance with our belief that there is no after-life. I don’t think we can label another “aggressive”, as we don’t know what frame of mind they’re in when writing. Kevin is enthusiastic about his beliefs, and has recently had a few traumas with which to deal, so let’s make allowances for him being stressed at what is a stressful time for many, OK?
However, I must add that great schools, philanthropy and help in times of disasters are not limited to those who are Christian. I have a problem with “doing good unto others” because a god says we should, and we’re to be rewarded for it. Doing good, under these circumstances, is always in the selfish interests of the believer. Better to help anonymously, and with no hope of a post-mortem hug for one’s efforts.
Damian,
I tried to post this yesterday but lost my text while trying to post (arg! got the comment code wrong and hadn’t saved my text! – then I had to run off and I wasn’t able to get back until now). As one of the denizens of this blog with automatic credibility (I hope) for having no love of Phariseeism (though I should point out that historically, the Pharisees were quite different then how New-Testament polemic portrays them), I’d like to add to MIT’s and Francoise’s defense for Kevin.
As I commented a few posts ago, I’ve noticed a change in the tone of this blog. Sure, some (but not most!) of the initial positions are still from a conservative Christian point of view. Kevin is a conservative Christian. But the discussion that follows seems more accepting of the views of others. I’m not saying that Kevin now agrees that conservative views are wrong – but that doesn’t bother me in the least. It bothers me when people holding any view (even ones I happen to hold) are unable or unwilling to consider opposing views.
The recent norm on this blog is that Kevin (and others for whom I have a growing respect) now make the effort fairly consistently, and often enough succeed in reaching an understanding. I hope I am personally am doing what you are asking of Kevin. I hope that Christians on this blog feel that way about me – that whether I agree with them or not on any given topic, and even when I strongly oppose their views, I at least demonstrate that I understand their position.
Please don’t take any of this post as any kind of brow-beating. It’s not meant that way at all In this response to your post, I am just taking an opportunity to extend kudos and appreciation where due. So as Kevin suggested, stick around! It’s a pretty good blog!
I too noted the twin towers in their picture. Creative marketing on their part.
I love Lennon’s imagine. I think it is a great Christian song with just a few word tweaks.
Damian, keep up the constructive criticism. It’s never easy to take, because of our tendency to defensiveness, but it is good for us.
Thank you A3 and Francoise for putting me in the picture. I appreciate what you are doing here and I agree, constructive conversations are something to strive for.
That said, so far I haven’t actually seen any response to your mild questions in your first comment, A3, or any of my many questions. I think I understand what you are saying is that the format of this blog is to state the initial position from a conservative viewpoint and then (depending on the controversial nature of the article or opinion) go on to discuss.
If I were a black man and the initial position said something about blacks not really humans I would want, at the very least, some kind of follow-up justification for the statement. In fact, I’d be justified in being a little annoyed if someone had made the statement in order to provoke discussion without actually participating in the discussion itself. My annoyance would be justified no matter which way you look at it.
You may say that there’s a huge difference between saying that blacks aren’t humans and saying that non-Christians don’t have a reason to live (and the other implications that they are incapable of good). Perhaps in America you have become immune to these kinds of attitudes but from my perspective they are poisonous if intentional and puerile if ill-considered.
In the spirit of having a constructive conversation I’m going to ask (for the fourth time) for Kevin – or anyone else – to justify the initial position posited in that bullet list.
Damian,
As I said before, that is how I see the world. Thank you for exposing me to your point of view. I would have a hard time looking forward to the future if I thought that all that happened was I died and nothing happened after that.
I never said non-Christians are not capable of good. I’m sure you are a wonderful person. But being good enough will never earn a person a way into heaven. The Bible teaches it is by God’s grace that we get to have an abundant life on earth and when we go to heaven.
I’m glad you find fulfillment in your life. I would not have the same outlook if I was without a relationship with Jesus.
Kevin,
If it were true (hypothetically) that there were no God, would you prefer to know it and lose the comfort you have, or would you rather not know it and continue to be comforted?
Damian,
That’s actually part of the progress I’m citing
Questions like that used to be met with the standard dogma and canned Bible verses. Very defensive. I would prefer to get answers to my questions in too, and often enough I do. My impression now is that at least Kevin and others contemplate the questions rather than just reacting. Either that or they decided to ignore me (which doesn’t seem to be the case). That’s getting closer to a real discussion.
I didn’t mean to leave you with that impression. I think the blog is primarily a conservative Christian blog for conservative Christians, and the posts reflect that. Others are here as guests and their comments are welcome. That’s a very rare thing in itself! But now I’m projecting – Kevin, how would you characterize it?
One last note: even though it is primarily a conservative Christian blog, I don’t automatically disagree with all of the posts. It surprises me sometimes (and maybe others too) the things we agree on. Just in the past week or so, I agreed with some 3 posts in a row! And people agree with my posts often enough too.
If anyone did claim that blacks weren’t human, Damian, I would ask them how blacks manage to breed babies with non-black human partners – simple as that. I would also ask them what melanin content a person has to have before being regarded as “black”. Then I’d steer them towards the Human Genome Project, which has demonstrated that there are no races, just one species with endless variations.
It’s not so simple when dealing with someting as subjective as religious belief/spiritual experience. Many sufferers of TLE (temporal lobe epilepsy) have vivid experiences of “the divine”, which are so intense that atheists experiencing this phenomenon have reputedly converted.
Belief, or lack of it, is dependent on many factors. Kevin grew up in a Christian home, and although I cannot speak authoritively of his immediate environment, I would guess that growing up in the Deep South would predispose a person to think that way. When all or most people around you have a consenus of a certain “reality”, it’s difficult to resist.
I was raised “Christian” and loathed it. Being in a secular country like Australia, where the official religions are heliotry and hippolatry,
, and where nobody gives a hoot what you believe,as long as you don’t ram it down the throats of others; further, a country wherein may be found literature of every description, it wasn’t difficult for me to make the decision that I could not, in conscience, pretend in any manner, to a belief in the god of the Bible.
I have racked my brians wondering how intelligent , educated people believe in the literal ” reality” of ancient myths, and after 40 odd years of asking, am still none the wiser. I have concluded that people believe weird things because they want to, or because leaving the herd is too painful ( or downright dangerous) and because hope, the last demon of Pandora’s box, is held out to the believer.
I do undertsand the very human anguish at the thought of death being the final act- I would love to believe that we live on, but there is not a jot of evidence to suggest that this is so. I love life greatly, and make the most of every day, but I have no illusions that there is anythhing waiting for me at the other side of the grave.
The fear of death dealt with by belief in a deity who reserves after-life happiness fo rthe worshipper, religion also serves the useful purpose of binding human beings together into communities wherein the believer can find help and support.
I could go on about the anthropoliogical reasons for religions, but I’m sure that you and other readers of this blog are aware of them.
Kevin tries to understand what meaning of life we infidels have, and we’ve tried to understand how and why he believes things which seem crazy to us. Fair exchange!