Jun 22 2007
Does no one care about abortion anymore?
[From Christian Post]
Despite wide attention on issues such as abortion in the 2008 presidential race, America’s registered voters indicate abortion is not a top-tier issue. Only 40 percent of all registered voters mark abortion as very important to their vote, according to the latest survey by Pew Research Center for the People & the Press. Abortion is a low priority among Democratic-leaning voters (38 percent) and even Republican-leaning ones (43 percent). Voters overall rate the economy and the war in Iraq as leading issues.
Read about it here.
[From me]
I don’t think anyone should be out yelling ugly things to women who are in a crisis pregnancy. I also disagree with violence towards those who perform abortions. But why doesn’t it matter anymore to voters? I believe our nation is becoming more and more selfish. Americans are more worried about their pocketbooks then they are the millions of innocent children who are butchered in abortion chop shops every year. Believers should be more concerned about those babies who are being ripped from their mothers wombs than their IRA and 401K’s.
What do you think?
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39 responses so far
Abortion is the issue that much of the church wants to pretend doesn’t exist. If my vocabulary consisted solely of words I have heard during sermons, I probably wouldn’t know what an abortion was.
Yet here we are in the U.S., where 4,000 innocent human beings will be legally crushed and dismembered today and the lives of countless women - and men - will be seriously damaged.
I’m with you, Kevin - I don’t think yelling unkind things is particularly effective. But there is a better model: Crisis Pregnancy Centers.
They help women (and men) in their time of need. All services, counseling and training are free. They share the Gospel with those who consent to hear it. They help save lives now and for eternity.
I encourage everyone to know where their local Center is so they can refer people there.
Phil,
I’m glad you do. But when people voted for President Clinton and I believe this election was/will be about $$$.
Kevin,
There are only two candidates that I would even consider right now:
Former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee. I love what he said, “Life begins at conception, but it does not end at birth.” How true, how very, very true. I like the way he thinks, and I’m impressed with his wide range of experiences in life: former pastor, politician, musician, et al.
Former First Lady/Current New York Senator Hillary Clinton. Senator Clinton has enough political experience that she couldn’t be any worse than what we have in office right now. And if the country is upset with her, in 2012, we vote her out.
That’s honestly how I feel. I cannot vote for Rudi McRomney. I like Barack Obama, but feel that he is much too green for the Oval Office. And we don’t need another actor in the White House (Fred Thompson).
You still love me, bro? I sure hope so!
Phil,
I like you no matter who you vote for. Do you really think Mrs. Clinton is the answer? I would rather have Bill back then her. She scares me.
First of all, Kevin
The word is “than” not “then.” (Sorry, the “anal side” of me comes out with spelling).
I don’t agree with some of her policies ideas. But then again, I have not agreed with many of the Bush/Cheney policies.
I don’t believe…deep in my heart…that ANY politician is “the answer” for what ails this nation. Cal Thomas and Ed Dobson wrote an incredible book several years ago: BLINDED BY MIGHT. You should get a copy and read it…tremendously insightful.
NO politician has the answers…their feet are clay just like mine and yours. It’s high time that the CHURCH stop looking to Washington for all the answers.
Phil,
I agree wholeheartedly about politics. Jesus is the answer. But when it comes to the unborn I can’t sit quietly why millions of babies die yearly. Hillary won’t change that.
Kevin, Geekwad, and others:
I’m not thrilled about any of the potential Presidents that are on the “slate” right now. Not a single one of them.
Abortion on demand became law in 1973. Since that time, we have had 5 Republican Presidents, and 2 Democratic Presidents…and we still have “abortion on demand” in this country. This is a moral issue, and it will take the Spirit of God to change the hearts and minds of the people who “use this service”–not just the politicians.
The issues that concern me right now:
Our outrageous National Debts (that Kevin’s children & Grandchildren will have to face and pay someday, should the Lord tarry)
The 40+ million people who have no access to “basic healthcare” for whatever reason, without bankrupting their own households.
The sorry state of public education which I am forced to fund with my taxes–which are not decreasing, by the way.
The horrible state of veterans’ care once they leave the military. Our military veterans deserve FAR BETTER than what the “powers that be” are currently giving them. I am a military veteran–I have a “dog hunting” in this one.
The quagmire called Iraq. Enough said. I supported the invasion, and I only wish the Oval Office had done it right the first time. Alas, they did not.
****************
On a spiritual level:
I am concerned about local churches being the Body of Christ in their communities–not just the ecclesiastical hierarchy spouting religious-sounding themes once or twice a week.
I am concerned about pastors being shepherds–not just CEOs. I’m a seminary-trained man, and I’ve been “in the church” all my life. The Church is the most wonderful entity on the planet. It is also probably the most frustrating entity on the planet as well–sometimes.
I could go on…
Phil,
As a believer, who do you think will be more apt to make Godly decisions? Another believer or a fake? I don’t trust Mrs. Clinton. She has shown contempt for Christians her entire adult life.
Kevin,
Before you make such broad generalizations about Senator Clinton, do you want to offer clear and convincing evidence?
If not, then please don’t make such statements as “She has shown contempt for Christians her entire adult life.”
If you have clear and convincing evidence, then by all means, present it.
As Christ-followers, we MUST be willing to back up our statements (that includes me too), and to remember that we are people of integrity and truth. I believe that you are a man of both integrity and truth.
Kevin,
Please don’t misunderstand me. I’ve not decided who will get my vote in November 2008. I’m not jumping for joy over any of the current possibilities. But this much I am very certain concerning “us”:
We need a real “spiritual awakening” in our churches, and then we can pray for one in our nation. REVIVAL is for the church…EVANGELISM is for the “lost.” Evangelism is an outward expression of “revival”–and the American Church desperately needs revival. We don’t need more buildings, more seminars, more conferences, or another “blockbuster” book.
We need ole fashion, sin-confessing, sin-forsaking, neck-hugging, humbling-ourselves before God (and each other), Holy Ghost revival!
Most of us have our “spiritual experiences” on Sunday, and we trot through our daily routines of devotions, etc. Nothing wrong with that at all, and I’m not condemning it.
But I’m wondering if we really take the Epistle of James seriously? If we really are willing to fight discrimination and prejudice among ourselves, if we really are ready to “pray for the sick” and watch the Lord raise them up, and if we really are willing to “let our words be few…” (Just three of the subjects from my favorite New Testament book).
I’ve got a lot more I can say…and I probably will.
Phil,
I agree with the need for Revival. But if my vote can save a unborn baby then I will vote that way 1st. We are talking millions of babies are dying.
Kevin,
I know more than one wonderful Spirit-filled saint who is a Democrat…some of them have led major denominations in this country. A couple of them I know very personally.
CNN hosted a “Faith and Politics” forum a few weeks ago and it was fascinating. Senator Clinton’s response was the BEST of all the responses offered on that forum concerning abortion. Some 12 years ago, her husband, then-President Clinton [whom I never voted for] said that his convictions concerning abortion is that the procedure should be “safe, legal and RARE.” He put special emphasis on “RARE.” Abortion has touched my family members more than once.
The late Dr Jerry Falwell was once asked, “Reverend, we all know what you are against, but what are you for? If abortion is so wrong [and it is, imho], what are you and your church going to do about it?”
Thomas Road Baptist Church then set up a home for unwed mothers who wanted to either give their babies up for adoption or keep them.
I certainly don’t hold Senator Clinton up as the “model Christian”–but then again I would be hard pressed to think of anyone whom I would hold up–short of Billy Graham and his recently promoted-to-glory wife, Ruth.
If you can find the CNN forum on the internet, watch it…a very informative and challenging discussion.
People care about abortion.
But, we’ve got a crummy war in Iraq, people are going green, gas prices are through the roof, and grandmothers and the working class can’t afford their prescription drugs.
And I do think Hillary is frequently misrepresented in conservative circles. The woman is no lefty. She’s hawkish and for that reason (and others) myself and many other progressives will not cast their vote for her in the primary. Oh and I think you’ll find fruit in her work with children. Education has always been a priority of Hillary and I commend her for it. Just because a person is pro-choice doesn’t mean that they’ve shown contempt for Christians. In fact, she is a Christian and quite devout. I was impressed with her ability recently to articulate her faith at the CNN event hosted by Sojourners.
Kevin,
Senator Clinton is the only Democratic Candidate that I could support at the present.
Former Governor Huckabee is the only Republican Candidate that I could support at the present time.
Both candidates have feet of clay.
BDW,
You proved my point. Americans are more worried about $$. Millions of babies die every year.
About the term “PRO-CHOICE” –does the baby have a choice?
Hillary Rodham Clinton is strongly pro-abortion. In 2005 she voted 100 percent of the time with pro-abortion NARAL and 0 percent of the time with the National Right to Life Committee. For example, she voted:
* AGAINST banning partial birth abortions
o Partial Birth Abortion - US Conservative Politics
* AGAINST the Child Custody Protection Act. In other words, she did not vote to stop adults from taking teens across state lines in order to obtain abortions without their parents’ knowledge.
o U.S. Senate Fortifies State Parental Notification Laws - US Conservative Politics
* FOR embryonic stem cell research
o Top Four Reasons Congress Should Not Fund Embryonic Stem Cell Research - US Conservative Politics
* FOR permitting abortions in military hospitals - abortions paid for by taxpayers.
http://usconservatives.about.com/od/profiles/p/clinton_votes.htm?once=true&
Geekwad,
1st I never brought up Hillary. If she gets elected I will support her and pray for her. This whole post is prompting me to pray for her now.
What am I not seeing? If a dictator or mass murderer was killing millions of people a year wouldn’t we be appalled? Why are we so numb to unborn children dying? It is a fact they are dying and it obviously doesn’t matter to voters. I guess I’m now in the minority.
My mom has led Bible Studies for Women of Rama. I support Crisis Pregnancy Centers. I would never call a woman who has had an abortion ugly names. I know women who have had them and I care about them and will minister to them. I want to be part of the solution and sometimes that means letting people know that millions of innocent babies are dying every year in the name of choice. What choice do they have?
I’d say issues relating to health care and and the war in Iraq are pro-life matters. Perhaps the best approach is to support legislation that will ultimately reduce the number of abortions and create an environment where the desire to get an abortion does not exist.
And perhaps Hillary is not pro-abortion. Perhaps she is merely upholding constitutional precedent….or maybe she understands that these difficult decisions are best left up to the woman, her doctor, and her priest. I don’t know?
The better question is - what have the so-called pro-life Republican administrations and Republican Congress’s of years past done for the pro-life movement lately? Not a whole lot….
In my opinion, making abortion “safe, legal, and rare” is the best route to go. But pro-life groups with an all-or-nothing mentality are unwilling to compromise. Thus, they accomplish much of nothing.
If life truly begins at conception and ends at death as Huckabee says, when will the Right begin to give legs to that line of thought?
BDW,
Would Jesus support abortion?
Kevin,
That question is not fair!
That is sorta like asking, “Would Jesus drive a Mercedes or a Yugo?”
How is the question unfair? Are we not called to be Christlike?
Also, most of you know I’m not a fan of hypocrites like Newt G either. I think what would Jesus think is important.
You know, it is amazing how little credit we give to God for who He is. Are man’s ways better than God’s ways? Has God given this nation over to go its own way? Are we “American Christians” so caught up in who we are, who we vote for, what’s going on in the political scene, that we have forgotten Who our true Leader is?
“May it never be!”
Everyone has contributed VALUABLE insights in this discussion.
Thanks Kev for bringing it up…
Kevin, the question you are repeating, “do the babies get a choice?” is more empty rhetoric. The “babies” in question do not have the ability to make choices. They do not have free will in the Christian sense or the neural myelinization required for decision making. The question appears calculated to create an emotional response rather than foster discussion and understanding.
I’m not arguing for or against. I’m very much undecided; I don’t feel qualified to find the compromise of least harm. I’m just trying to point out how you are unintentionally hurting your case with those outside your choir. I feel as though (as the audience to your rhetoric) I am being manipulated rather than reasoned with.
BTW, I know you didn’t bring up Hillary, but she was not really relevant to my point. Any number of things could be substituted for her and the conversation doesn’t change.
Shazzam: The thought of Hillary being the next president of my country gives me the willies!!
Nontheless, I am reminded from God’s Word that “He sets and takes down kings and princes…”. Besides, He may just give us what we deserve. Judgement with a “Jezzebel” on the throne.
Would Jesus support Big Tobacco?
Would Jesus support the Bush Tax cuts?
Would Jesus support a Flat Tax?
Would Jesus support waterboarding, eh torture?
And Would Jesus support the Iraq War - the senseless killing of thousands of innocent Iraqi women and children?
Those are simplistic questions to complex issues.
No, I don’t think Jesus would approve of the woman who gets an abortion due to an inconvenient pregnancy. But, I’m not sure what Jesus would say to the 15-year old who had an abortion after her uncle raped her. Certain circumstances arrive where a biblical ethic could justify the termination of a pregnancy. Those are complex issues that can’t be solved with a bumper-sticker or campaign slogan mentality. And due to those circumstances and other secular reasons, I’m comfortable leaving that very private decision up to the woman. Meanwhile, I’ll speak out (as I have done) and support candidates, legislation, and community efforts to reduce the circumstances and environment that may tempt a woman to abort.
As most of you know, I was a registered nurse, with 4 years gynaecological experience, both surgical and medical. An estimated 50% - yes, FIFTY PER CENT of all products of conception - zygote, morulla, blastocyst -never reach the implanting stage, but are expelled via the menses. I have yet to see any Right- to- Lifer crying over that.
Meanwhile, let the Bible speak for itself!
1 Sam 15:3
Deut 2:33-34
Num 31:17
Psa. 137-9
Josh 10:40
And, most horrid of all -Hos 13:15-16
Now, if, as you say, Jesus is God, then these deeds not only meet with his approval, but are expressly commanded.
‘Nuff said.
BDW,
I’m sorry I just found your comment in my anti-spam. I’m not for any of what you mentioned. Every pro-abortion person brings up rape. Well it is still a baby no matter what.
Francoise,
I don’t get your point.
BTW, I think the reason many of you get the “willies” when you think about Ms. Clinton being our next president is because she’s a WOMAN!
Yes, I am one too, and I shudder at the thought of ANY woman being president, except for maybe Francoise! Only I couldn’t vote for her because she’s not pro-life! Uuugh!
I don’t think God made women capable of making the kinds of decisions a president has to make. Of course, God could use her to bring about total destruction - you know - what Mr. Rector said above…”Judgement with a ‘Jezebel’ on the throne.”
Abortion has been nothing but a fundraiser for both sides since Reagan ran back in ‘80.
Social conservatives want to stop the practice and produce things like Silent Scream.
Libertarians use social conservatives as boogeymen coming to turn women into incubators.
And both sides make crazy money from $100 or less donations.
If the republicans were ever serious about ending abortion on demand they would have done so. In 1994, when the contract with america was drafted, there was not one word about ending abortion on demand.
The republicans had 6 years of control over the executive, legislative and judicial branches during George W. Bush’s presidency and sat on their hands about abortion.
Doing something to end abortion on demand would result in fewer donations, fewer voter education cards placed in church bulletins and fewer pastors telling their people to vote for life on the last Sunday in October during election years.
.02
Oops! I should not have said that Francoise is not pro-life! She is waaaayyy for life. I should have said she is not against abortion. Shew!!!
A popularly democraticly elected individual had little experience in politics but quickly gained the support of the majority of the people.They used a slogan very much like, “It’s the economy stupid!” in his campaign. The people elected him and sure enough his social and economic initiatives brought stability and wealth to his nation, which had been sufferring from an economic depression to being the most richest, most powerful and strongest most technologically advanced nation on earth in less than a decade?
Adolf Hitler.
If you are willing to compromise the value of life, anything is possible.
God have mercy upon the USA.
In Christ
Andrew \o/
47 comments before Godwin’s law makes an appearance.
Godwin’s Law–As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
Ah, the Hitler bogeyman.
Don’t you hate when someone injects Hitler into the conversation?
I must admit this conversation has been quite productive at least compared to the 50-comment long post over at the infamous Volfan’s cawntry blog. We’re discussing nouthetic counseling and I’ve found that more than one Southern Baptist sounds like Tom Cruise with an anti-psychiatry mentality. I’d love to have a related conversation here Kevin at some point down the road. I’m finding *some* Southern Baptists attitudes towards psychology to be quite eye opening….
I am tremendously offended at anyone who would compare the imminently qualified Hillary Clinton to either Jezzebel or Adolf Hitler.
Wow, I thought God was the only One with a right to be “offended” in this world He created!
And I am sure He IS offended by the untold millions of baby’s that have been destroyed because of the votes of people like H.R.C.
I’m just as sure that “molech’ rejoices everytime one of these precious creations of God is slain.
Lev. 18:21
You’re right. I just can’t see a woman leading a country to the point where it spends more than a trillion annually on war, but doesn’t provide adequate health care to millions of its citizens. Those kinds of decisions, only a man could have made.
I joke, I joke. I can see Hillary doing that.
Well I have stayed away from this topic because the ones with so many comments on serious topics usually stress me out. Since you’ve posted another blog from this, I had to take a look.
MIT - It doesn’t surprise me that states where more attend church are the same that have more abortions. We try to say it isn’t so, but single moms in churches are still often looked down upon. They may be helped, but they are still given a pity look of judgement. There is more of a “need” to have an abortion in a Christian family who does attend church regularly. I don’t know how we can change this perception.
Geekwad - Why does the language of saying that it is killing a baby bother you so much? What wording would you prefer to be used? This is really a core problem because strong pro-lifers see the baby first and pro-choicers see the woman first. When it is the baby seen first, we see the horror in the death. We rarely refer to the horrific way the death occurs and the effect on the woman. When it is the mom seen first, we hear the woman’s struggles of life. We rarely talk about how having a child could be hard for the child. So can you please explain, what less graphic yet true language you would prefer used.
I am a pro-Choice Christian. Being pro-Choice does not mean being pro-abortion. Most of my reasoning has also been stated. I’m all for abortion clinics being closed and having to go to the hospital for an abortion. Make the choice more informed like all other surgeries!
I would rather more Christians be pro-Life. Being pro-Life has to mean more than being Anti-Abortion. If we want that baby to come to full term, then we have to care about it outside of the womb also. We have to want to adopt (even the tough ones). We have to help more be provided with afforable pre- and post- natal care. We have to have a plan for what we are going to do with all those babies –school, day-care, health care. We have to be able to love that mother and child whether there was an adoption or not. We have to hold the sperm donors accountable for the creation –and I’m not sure how those laws should work.
Janna, what I meant to object to were the emotional appeals and the partisanship. I see this as a public health issue. It is clear to me that unlimited and unquestioned access to abortions is not the optimal choice from a public health point of view, and nor is completely forbidding abortions in all cases. I think this also describes the views of more than 90% of the participants of the debate, both here and in society at large.
Finding the right compromise is very difficult. It is not going to be reached through emotional appeals but rather by difficult thought and good-faith debate. I don’t think the problem is being given its due respect when people start chanting slogans. Kevin has managed to conspicuously grieve the loss of “millions of babies” at least seven times on this page alone. When taken as a whole, it amounts to, “Rah, rah for my team!” It simply alienates people and stifles genuine discussion.
But now that you ask, I do think using the word “baby” to refer to a first trimester human rather stretches the connotative definition and totally ignores the most common denotative definitions. It is another emotional tactic. But I don’t particularilly object beyond feeling somewhat insulted at the manipulation. (One gets worse from thirty seconds of commercial TV tho.)