May 28 2007
Transgender Clergy?
[From KUTV]
United Methodist clergy in Baltimore are asking for the denomination’s highest legal authority to review a bishop’s decision to reappoint a transgender pastor to lead a city congregation. Bishop John R. Schol decided last week to continue the appointment of the Rev. Drew Phoenix as pastor of St. John’s United Methodist Church.
Phoenix, 48, has led St. John’s for nearly five years. In the past year, he changed his name from Ann Gordon and received medical treatment to become a man. The Methodist church bans sexually active gay clergy but does not have any rules about transgender pastors.
Read about it here.
[From me]
Just because they don’t have rules, does that make it right?  The reason they probably don’t have rules is who would have thought about this? I know Denise has been posting on here the last week. What is done is done. But I don’t believe anyone who has had this operation should be a leader in a church-especially clergy.
What do you think?
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13 responses so far
This one falls in the category of, “I can’t believe we’re having this conversation!” It is another case of apostate liberal theologian leaders saying, “In your face, God - we’ll do whatever we like!”
Just like you said, the rule doesn’t exist because, “What? You mean he used to be….” This is nothing short of a circus act at this point. Let me see, ” He made us in His likeness.” Or, wait, His kinda sorta likeness, I don’t know I’m not sure.
The Methodist court will reverse this, I am confident. They take a while to address these things, but so far, when they address them, they do it the right way. We just have to be patient…
In Christ,
Tim Cook
I hesitate to wade into this thread but I would like to point out a couple of items of interest.
1. The people who know this person best (Bishop and congregation) seem to have the least problem with them.
2. The Bible is full of “sexually imperfect” people being used by God, some in leadership positions. King David is one example, another being the Eunuch Daniel (where would dispensationalist end time eschatology be without him?), the three Hebrews thrown into the fiery furnace, Phillip and the Eunuch of Queen Candace, who appears to have broought faith in Christ to his native country. Not even mentioning Solomon born to a messed up marriage, Rahab with the unfortunate eternal appellation “the Harlot”, and Abraham marrying his own sister!
Eunuchs (not saying that this person is one, but that seems to be the closest thing mentioned in Scripture to the case in question) were despised by Jews and their familys along with them were barred from entering the “assembly of the Lord” for up to ten generations! Now THAT is a curse!
But then Jesus says this odd thing…
St. Matthew 19:12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.”
I know some interpret this as meaning celibacy, but that could never explain being a eunuch from birth, nor could that explain those made so by others. And I have never understood why Jesus seems to think it would be hard for people to accept this statement, yet He does.
So, I don’t know abut the Reverend in question, but I do know that God has moved to more freedom as time as gone on, and I do know the Scriptures say the following:
Isaiah
56:1 Thus says the Lord: Maintain justice, and do what is right, for soon my salvation will come, and my deliverance be revealed. 56:2 Happy is the mortal who does this, the one who holds it fast, who keeps the sabbath, not profaning it, and refrains from doing any evil. 56:3 Do not let the foreigner joined to the Lord say, “The Lord will surely separate me from his people”; and do not let the eunuch say, “I am just a dry tree.” 56:4 For thus says the Lord: To the eunuchs who keep my sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast my covenant, 56:5 I will give, in my house and within my walls, a monument and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off. 56:6 And the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord, to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord, and to be his servants, all who keep the sabbath, and do not profane it, and hold fast my covenant 56:7 these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples. 56:8 Thus says the Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, I will gather others to them besides those already gathered.
and the mysterious quote from Jesus Himself in M
****Satir-ony Alert******
I’m just hoping that Ann/Drew doesn’t have a Private Prayer Language. It’d be a shame to have gone to such lengths to be eligible to teach at SWBTS, only to have that eligibility cruelly taken away but one of them pesky tertiary issues.
Satan is probably having a good belly laugh over all the turmoil these things seem to stir up in God’s people.
If Francoise and Denise are teaching me anything, it is that God is a bigger God than I have ever thought! When my kidney was removed last year, I was altering the way God made me. Should I have accepted what would come with renal cell cancer (almost certain death within a few years) - or allow the surgeon to remove the offending alien substance?
I am having to step back and remove some of the data that has been placed in my head by well-meaning preachers/teachers. Let’s get on with the TRUE CALLING as Christians. Let’s show the world who God really is. Let’s embrace death to self and allow Christ to surgically remove ALL things that veil the Image of God.
Nothing really constructive to say, but I had to mention the picture. It is amazing to me how similar this guy looks to Anthony Rapp who played Mark Cohen in Rent. He was only one of two straight characters. (yes I know transgenered and gay don’t fit together either)
As I have said before- everytime you cut your hair, shave, use deodorant or makeup, wear clothes, have vaccinations or dental fillings, you are altering the way God made you. None of us gets around au naturel.
I can’t believe that anyone would have a problem with this person- he’s not responsible for being “imperfect” in his chromosomes. Does the “other” inspire fear in you?
George Bush- a liar and a murderer- why don’t you have problems with him, instead? He’s far more of a threat than this minister ever will be.
MIT, well said!
Marie, thanks for the compliment! I never thought I’d be teaching a Christian about God, and can’t see how I have!!
Well, I just read the article, and something form the Bible came to mind. Don’t know who said it, but it mentions that in heaven there is neither male nor female, and that you believers are all the same in Christ.
I think that should answer your question.
Get real people… No he should not be in a church leadership position.
Next topic please?
Francoise, you show me how the world perceives Christians. I am VERY saddened at the way we are representing our King, who died for ALL. Jesus is the only Way and we tarnish His name with all our nit-picking. We make the Way seem unattractive and we are, in effect, turning people away from the True Door.
As God has used you and Denise to open my eyes and examine my own thoughts and motives, I have found much that does not line up with what God has called His children to - a life of love, not condemnation - and He is filling me up with love for these people who did not choose the life they have. The only people I recall Jesus ever condemning were the legalistic Jewish leaders that professed one thing but lived another.
Francoise, you have a kinder heart than some Christians I know!
I pray that we Christians would all examine our hearts and listen for the whisper of our King in these matters and give our all for the advancement of His Kingdom - that the Body of Christ would be magnified across the earth in Beauty and Truth.
Francoise,
There is a big difference between changing one’s sex and shaving.
My point is that nobody goes around exactly as they were born. Nobody is ever 100% happy with being au naturel.
The TG minister looks far more like a man than a woman, and I sympathise with people who’ve been through this torment. Surely it’s the heart which counts, not the exterior appearance? Surely you wouldn’t condemn these unfortunate people to a twilight existence of having no “normal” gender?
Think through the consequences of forbidding a change ( usually for the better!) - forbidden to marry, treated as an outcast, reviled, attacked, shunned, and all because “God” screwed up their chromosomes. I speak as a medical person, and as a humanist. Why impose more suffering and rejection upon those whom society labels “different”?
Thanks Marie, for that compliment!!