Nov 13 2006
Do superstar pastors help or hurt faith communities?
As ghastly as the Ted Haggard party-and-pray scandal was, observers say his megachurch had far better ethical oversight than others.
Pastor Ted’s influence was felt everywhere in New Life Church: in the videos shown at worship; in the New Life bookstore, which stocked books he recommended; and in the story of the church itself. He started New Life in his basement, building it into a 14,000-member nationally known megachurch. As the Rev. Ted Haggard’s fortunes rose, so did the church’s.
So when Haggard fell spectacularly from grace in a scandal involving drugs and allegations of gay sex, many wondered if New Life, so tied to his public persona, would crash with him.
The answer has significance far beyond the Haggard tragedy. As evangelical megachurches have sprung up around the country, concerns have grown over whether superstar pastors help or hurt faith communities.
Read about it here.
I have been wondering this for years. I love hearing Andy Stanley, Ed Young Jr., Bill Hybels and others speak. I am amazed at what God is doing in their churches. But I’ve wonder–what if–something happened to them –death, scandal or something else. What would happen to these churches? Are they personality driven or God driven?
I praise God for the lives that are changed because of their ministries. I was at a Atlanta Falcons game an few years ago and overheard a young lady talking about the Impact of Northpoint Community Church on her life. She was a very unchurched person who God got a hold of.
I was in Chicago on a mission trip a few years ago and a lady introduced herself to me and said she “was a full devoted follower of Christ.” Obviously Willowcreek has made a difference in her life.
But now these churches are starting “video venues” 1000’s of miles away from the home church. I don’t know what to think. Those men are awesome speakers and they minister to me. But what happens –God forbid–if something were to happen to these high profile pastors?
I don’t have the answers, but I have a lot of questions.
What do you think?
![[del.icio.us]](http://images.del.icio.us/static/img/delicious.small.gif){kind=small}
19 responses so far
Anytime a person is exalted over Christ and his church, trouble will come. I think a lot of the time, we as Christian consumers that happen to be pastors out these guys on “another level”. I’m a huge fan os Stanley, Giglio, Young, Hybels, etc., but I have to be reminded - they are just servants of God too!
Probably the most positive telling sign to me is when their attendees associate themselves w/ the church before the pastor. I went to North Point last year and Andy was hardly brought up by the people, but they raved about the church! We need to be careful that don’t idolize them. Pastor’s die, scrw up & fall everyday - the problem comes when we think that they are ine step below the God himself.
As for video venue churches…I pastor one. We are about 30 minutes apart, not thousands of miles, but I really don’t have a problem with it! I think it gives guys that are gifted w/ leadership but not teaching the opportunity to lead. in my opinion, there must be a local leader that they can connect with though.
Ryan,
Thanks for your insight. I believe God has given me a communication gift. No one would mistake me for Andy Stanley or Bill Hybels. I lived 20 min. from Northpoint and they decided to put a video church in our area. If I had the choice I would rather hear Andy over me. Believe me it hurt us when they moved in. We even asked them to help us but they didn’t.
But what happens if one of these video pastors has a falling out? That is my concern.
Its interesting that you bring this up. I used to work at a bank, my job was to drag in whatever business I could for lending, deposits, etc. One of our loan officers told me that we had an unwritten policy never to loan money to a church, especially one that is not affiliated with a denomination that would back up the loan. He used to say that the only thing that stood between a good loan repayment history and a bad one is the pastor sleeping with the secretary. If that happens, the church caves in, people leave, and they can no longer repay the loan. Its sad that it has happened to them enough that they have an unwritten rule about it.
And its not always moral failure that causes it. Theological error can as well. Recently, when Carlton Pearson decided to become a universalist, his church attendance fell off by about 90%, and the bank foreclosed on the building. We can say it isn’t so all we want, but if the unthinkable happened to any of the personalities you named, the church would go down with it most of the time.
This is a good topic for discussion. Craig Groeschel of Life Churcu.TV is the video pastor guru. And what he is doing seems to be “working” as far as growing the Kingdom. Two generations ago there was the circuit preacher. He’d pastor 2-4 churches but he could only be a one per week. A church might not see its pastor but once a month. Well now we have the closed ciruit preacher. It really is the same concept accept people have access to the pastors teaching (but not the pastor) weekly. My feeling is that this country just hit 300,000,000 people in population. MOST of them don’t know Christ. We need to become desparate to reach people using whatever method works (without compromising the message). I think the facts of life are that great leaders will draw people to THEM. It takes exponentially more effort then for that leader to steer the attention to Christ. And to answer your question, Kevin. Pastors have always failed and they will always fail - even high profile ones. And when it happens it will hurt - and the BIGGER personality they are the bigger it will hurt ALL of us. But we just keep going. It’s a messy business at times but as I read the letters of Paul, he had his share of messes to clean up too. If we are not making a mess, we may not be doing much (not trying to excuse the mess though).
As all this relates to your church and the arrival of a Northpoint venue. It sounds kind of like a small town store being swallowed by Wal-Mart. I am sure you have been affected. At this point I don’t know what to tell you accept that there are probably enough lost people to go around and that no matter how good a video feed is, it is hard to replace the “live” version. I hope that didn’t sound like I was spiritualizing the issue too much.
Jeff,
I agree with you. I am not opposed to the video venues. I’m just wonder if the churches are more personality driven. I have the most respect for Northpoint, Saddleback, Fellowship and Willow. I just pray nothing happens to their leaders that will hurt their ministry. I have been touched by all of them for the good. I am pro-all churches that reach people for Jesus.
I would venture to say it depends on whether that pastor is accountable to a pastor or someone(s) who could offer recommendations when he goes astray. Most likely Ted didn’t have headship or someone to really be accountable to, hence the desire to please himself.
http://thelamp.wordpress.com
http://www.covenantdata.com/golive/
Kevin,
You’ve asked interesting questions that I also find myself asking. Here’s where I’ve come to in my own life: One of my jobs as a Senior Pastor of a mid-size church is to train the church so that if I am not there, it goes on without missing a beat. To do that, a church must have committed and mature lay leadership. If God calls me elsewhere and the church flops, I am not flattered but grieved because I did not do my job well.
I know that church growth experts are maximizing the role of the pastor, and no doubt it is vitally important, but I think that was a reaction to churches that did not want their pastor to lead (just preach).
I believe that pastors should lead but not build the church around their own personality. Emphasizing commitment and spiritual maturity keep the church from building upon a replaceable person.
Those are a few of my thoughts.
Greg
Mt 23:11 - The greatest among you will be your servant.
At St. Joesph’s Monastery, where my Contemplative Prayer group meets, we are sometimes lead by a nice Nun named Sister Barbara.
I have been knowing her for a while and she is the very picture of sweet service to
Christ. I have never known her to even remotely act self important.
One time, after our Lectio Divina, we were chit chatting on just before we left, and I was talking to her. While making conversation, I asked how long she had been in her Order, and understood her to say four years. (it was actually fourty)
I noticed that her habit was different than the other Benedictine Sisters, so I asked her if she was still a Novice, she smiled sweetly and said, no, she was the Pioress!
She gets people coffee, she picks up after others, she is the first to offer to do what ever minor work needs to be done. I actually thought she might be sort of a Janitorial Staff type Nun.
Later I thought about that. I never realized she ran the place because she is such a good model of a Servant. Perhaps more Christian organizations need such a leader.
There’s no way of knowing how much of New Life’s growth was personality-driven rather than gospel-driven. But we’ll probably find out shortly.
For a real contrast, check Briarwood Presbyterian here in Bham. That church was mostly a result (in the earthly sense) of the work of Frank Barker. Frank is nobody’s superstar and I wouldn’t describe him as a dynamic preacher. He’s just a seemingly humble and Godly and devoted pastor and God used him in a big way. He retired some years ago after they’d built their beautiful mega-campus.
Like I just said on Marty’s blog, God uses every sort you can imagine. Lost in all the huggamugga about Ted Haggard’s fall is 14,000 believers in Colorado Springs. I dare say a lot of them were saved, and/or grew, under the church’s ministry. We need to remember that, too.
Greg,
Good points. I think Willow will go on for a long time without Bill Hybels because they have a team of Teaching Pastors anyway. I think there are several at Saddleback too.
Northpoint has some awesome ministries but let’s face it Andy preaches most of the messages. However “Kids Stuf” is a ministry that Andy has nothing to do with.
Like I said I have lots of questions.
MIT,
Sounds like a fine woman.
Bob,
I’m familiar with Frank Barker. I was involved with Campus Outreach. Frank emphasized discipleship and evangelism. Pretty good for a 5 point Calvanist.
Kevin,
I agree that video venues are a threat to local churches, but on the other hand many communities NEED some relevant teaching. I also know that since my theater-church meets in a theater, we have a completely different group of attendees than the typical church.
Our “mother” church is statistically older, more traditional and more bureaucratic. Our campuses median age is early to mid 30’s and I have a freedom to do things that I couldn’t in a tradtional setting. I’m just saying we need to be open to a new approach.
Think of it this way - how many more places could Paul have reached if he had the technology?
As for Andy Stanley’s communication gifts…I’m pretty sure there aren’t many as good as him (me included!).
This is a great discussion - obviously in the church world (to qoute the great prophet Bob Dylan
) “the times they are a changin’…”
As for a falling out…
If you mean between the campus pastor and senior pastor I think that the senior pastor has the authority. I lead a campus, but I submit to the senior pastor. Ultimately he has the God-given authority.
In addition to that, my senior pastor is an incredible communicator and leader - if I tried to do my own thing, I’m pretty sure my wife wouldn’t even come!
Well, you certainly have legitimate concerns. Remember, though, that there is nothing “new under the sun”. The apostle Paul had those same concerns. John’s Gospel had an extra chapter “tacked on” so that believers would be strengthened after having lost both Paul and Peter.
Stephen was stoned in ca 34 A.D….They worried.
James (son of Zebedee) was beheaded by Herod in ca. 42 A.D….They worried.
James (brother of the Lord) was thrown from the parapet and beat to death in ca 62 A.D….They worried.
The point is that those who are not “lukewarm” will remain strong in faith and “weather the storm”. If one church collapses, then four will spring up. Think about this…
Does anarchy ensue when a police officer, judge, lawyer or anyone in the justice department is discovered to be corrupt? Of course not. Is it harmful? Of course, and to the entire community structure. However, the community is always made stronger in the end and so it is within the churches (evangelical or no) for we must expose and cast out the fraudulent in order to remain strong in Christ.
Godspeed
From the “pew”…
Every growing congregation MUST have a plurality of leadereship. Sure, the Senior Pastor is important, but he/she must also have some sense of accountability and servanthood to the congregation. There are no SUPERSTARS in the Kingdom. Or at least there shouldn’t be.
I am convinced that a great model is Stevens Creek Community Church in Augusta, Georgia. My friend Marty Baker (a Lee University alum also) has been the lead pastor now for almost eighteen years. But he has a plurality of leadership there. He realizes the church doesn’t rise nor does it fall on HIM…
How many congregations have seen their pastors cry? How many congregations have heard their pastor confess his or her own struggles? How many pastors remind their congregations that they have “feet of clay” also?
Maybe in the scheme of the “Show” that we produce every Sunday morning and evening, we ought to get “real” with the saints of God who are gathered for worship?
Maybe, letting down the “face mask” in the pulpit would encourage those of us in the pew to do the same.
Let me make it known that I am for whatever it takes to reach people for Christ. If video venues work–then Praise God!
My personal preference is the churches that have “live” preaching at their satelite locations. The pastors rotate from location to location. I’m not saying the other is bad, it is just not what I would want because God gave me a communication gift. That is just personal preference.
I think Willowcreek and Saddleback would continue on because their churches have several “teaching” pastors. My concern is what if Joel Osteen, Andy Stanley or Ed Young Jr. were to be tragically killed or done something immoral. Would the churches and their satelite locations continue?
Like I said, I don’t have all of the answers just questions.
Ryan,
I think it is great in your situation for your gifts. It wouldn’t work for me.
It’s helpful to reflect on the great and godly people that God chose to use throughout Scripture–heroes of the faith. He sometimes chose people with past failure such as murderers to lead His people. The Lord used David mightily despite his immorality and the subsequent consequences.
Churches not centered on the Gospel when crisis strikes will be shaken dramatically. This is because their faith was not properly focused enough to look beyond the failure. The greatest tragedy of all is the effect on non-believers who will question their need for Christ in the first place due to apparent hypocrisy.
But our faith is in the living God–not man. God declares that His strength is made perfect in weakness. He has chosen men and women in their weakness to proclaim the Gospel of Christ, and despite our personal failures the power of the Gospel moves forward. If church identity is based on the truth of sinners saved by grace rather than prosperity or self-righteousness, that church best avoids hypocrisy in the eyes of the world.
I think the “superstar” pastor, in the long run, does more harm than good. Yes, people come to Christ, but it creates a “bigger is better” persona that can have many unintended consequences, especially in regard to perseverance and suffering. I just think that God intended our teachers to live in closer proximity with those being taught.
we need your prayer support because our people are still under the bondages of satan.
we have been praying for you and your ministry.
we are much encouraged and we appreciate you.
Thanking you
yours in His loving service
Rev B koteswarartao
hyderabad,india.
I have read and appreciate all of the comments related to the topic regarding “superstar pastors”. Here are my thoughts on the subject… First, if you are concluding that “superstar pastors” are a bad thing then are you suggesting that good communicators of the Word should pursue a different calling in life whereby not leveraging the gift God has given them? Second, should we all be content with “better than average pastors” or “ok pastors” or “down right bad communicators”? Third, in the case of “Northpoint”, often misspelled “North Point”, our senior pastor which some of you have heard of has for many years been apprenticing emerging leaders to “take the reigns” upon his exit (no matter what the reason). After all, he’s human and at last count has a life expectancy somewhere in the 77 to 79 range. Our senior pastor, who happens to be an extremely affective communicator, fully acknowledges on a daily basis (probably because his wife Sandra gently yet assertively reminds him) that he hasn’t cornered the market on “how to affectively communicate the Word of God”. In other words, he’s humble yet confident that God’s in control and when he is no longer available to speak, God will work it out. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not discounting any of the before mentioned comments. All have been well thought out and are legitimate in their own right. I’m simply urging each and every one of you not to put God in a box. One of the first things all of us acknowledged when we were in the process of starting Northpoint is that there are many ways to reach the unreached. We simply chose one way. It doesn’t mean that the other 327 ways are better or worse than our way. If our way was “THE ONLY WAY”, pardon the pun, then we’d have 3,000,000 plus in the Atlanta area funneling down Northpoint Pkwy on Sunday. Man, would that make the locals mad when driving to their corner Starbucks in Alpharetta around 8:30 a.m. in the morning! We’d be run out of town!!! Final point, God has a weird way of showing up when us humans, no matter how good our intentions, get in His way. I’m pretty confident about putting my faith in the One that raised Himself from the dead. There’s just something cool about hanging out with someone that can pull that off. When the time comes that any of the “superstar pastors” cease to lead their respective churches, I’m confident the one and only God and creator of the universe can figure out a way to continue their churches’ missions. Respectfully, Tim from the Johns Creek area.