Oct 28 2006
Testosterone-fueled alternative to Promise Keepers debut
Christian men are yearning for a more macho alternative to traditional worship and the message in some churches of a gentle robed Jesus, say organizers of a new style of men’s spiritual event called GodMen coming to Nashville this weekend.
At the daylong GodMen event, men will be able to cuss, smoke cigars, watch videos of football pileups and car crashes, listen to specially composed Christian rock songs such as “Testosterone High” and attend workshops on how to fight pornography addiction. Read about it here.
I think any event that helps people in their walk with Christ is great. I just wonder about some of this event. I don’t mean to be a prude, but why does cussing make you a man? Just wondering?
What do you think?
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33 responses so far
I agree. Cussing doesn’t make a man a man. That is the world’s standard of what a man is. I’d rather live according to the standard that Jesus Christ set for us. Which is to love one another and to love God with all our heart. The next thing they’ll be teaching men not to turn the other cheek, but instead to put your enemy in a headlock until the enemy submits. Also, events like this seem self-centered. I hope these men are also being taught how to be servants and how to be humble. Events like this are the reason why Christianity in America is a mile wide but only an inch deep.
morefire.wordpress.com
Hi Kevin, who is organizing this lovely event? Al Bundy?
Kevin:
Dad told me when I couldn’t think of anything to say, then cuss. I’m glad to see that folks who have run out of ideas have a place to go, now.
Cigars? Dad also said one nice thing about smoking was that having a pipe or cigar in your mouth might just keep you from saying so many stupid things. I tend to agree.
It makes me a man because I say it does … What? Wanna make something of it??? ^(*%%&*$*^%$*!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey, we’re free in Jesus, right?
Smoke a cigar if you want.
Cuss if you want.
But it strikes me that when Peter was attempting to distance himself from Jesus, he tried twice to deny knowing Him, but on the third try, he cursed, and that did the trick. I don’t know if it is a sin to say a cuss word, but it sure can distance you from Christ in peoples’ minds. And it likely can fall under the category of “unwholesome word,” which we are to avoid.
On the other hand, often Christians are mortified when they hear a cuss word come from the mouth of another person, yet never consider the vile nature of the gossip, backbiting, and idle talk they engage in regularly.
Kevin,
I’ve been known to enjoy a cigar once in a while, especially on a fishing trip with my brother-in-law. [Come to think about it I don't go fishing often enough] I’ve also been known to let go with with a word or two when I stub my toe. [Of couse, as I think about it, it is more the "dad-gum" variety.]
But my real question is, why do people always think of worship as an “event”? Abraham said “the lad and I will go yonder and…”worship” [This was, of course, as he was about to obey God in a great sacrifice, at least in his mind.] I have a feeling worship is more of an obedience thing and that has to do with life style rather than an event. If it ain’t real in a lifestlye, it ain’t real at ANY style of event even on Sunday morning in a Baptist church.
Paul B.
“Free in Jesus. smoke a cigar if you want, cuss if you want.” And what difference is there in a Christian doing these things and a non-believer doing them? Who needs to go to church or retreats to do these things? Then again, when you’re amongst yourselves, maybe you don’t need to let your light shine since you’re away from the unchurched. So far, I’m not seeing any reason to get to church when things obviously are no different with believers than with my current lifestyle. And speaking of Godmen, I wonder how much Jack Daniels and Buddweiser went down at the retreat.
Brian,
My tongue was planted firmly in cheek when I said that, so don’t get to riled up before church this morning ;>)
The reality is that people do smoke, and it is bad for you. I don’t smoke, because it screws up your lungs, and kills you. Plus, it stinks. But I am 20 pounds overweight. Is that any better a witness?
I have no problem with downing a Bud or two, although I prefer Shiner Bock. A beer or two every now and then has proven to be healthy for a person.
As for cursing, it does nothing to edify the body, nor does it exemplify what a Christian is. However, there are times when it can add a necessary emphasis to a sentence. Usually, however, it is just an attempt to cover one’s ignorance.
As I said before, you likely won’t hear a lot of cursing in church this morning, but I’ll bet you’ll hear course joking, gossip, backbiting, and idle talk. I’ll bet you’ll hear, “that preacher is just too…” or, “Did you see her dress?!” That, in my opinion, is much worse than cursing, and is why many people do not see the need to go to church. The hypocrisy is too much for them.
Hi JasonK,
Thanks for your thoughtful response. But, what is the difference between the believer preaching to the non-believer about sins of the flesh (or being an effective witness), and then living like that when there really is no difference between the lifestyles? I’m not saying there is anything wrong with these things — however, I question how it is right for some but not for others. Are we supposed to get saved just so we can go to church and then live the same as we did before we were saved? What about this business of being in the world, but not of the world? Being changed, born again, a new person in Christ and letting the light (and not the lamp — according to Adrian Rogers) shine? You get where I’m going with this, and how believers strive to see that they are “Godly”, and then the image is shattered when this sort of thing shows up.
And as for the smoking and drinking, what about the body being the temple of God and how believers should glorify God by respecting their body? It is obvious that this means little to so many, whether it’s these pleasures, or with the outward appearance (with the way some dress and draw attention to themselves.)
And you are right about the comments that believers make with their backbiting, idle talk, gossip, etc. It was bad (or more to the point: disgusting and deplorable) to the point where I finally accepted that I wanted no part of church or to have fellowship with those who engaged in such behaviour, so I left (after 8 years in evangelical circles) — just as you described about others who left due to hypocrisy.
Thanks for being honest with your response. I was expecting more along the lines of “Christ’s grace allows us the freedom to ….” As for your weight, 20 pounds overweight isn’t that bad, but 20 can become 25, etc. Having a mother who has had heart attacks, strokes, open-heart surgery, congestive heart failure, I realize how serious smoking and a bad diet can be. Just adjusting the diet a little bit, and getting a bit more exercise can make the world of difference.
Have a good day.
Part of the point is that it isn’t about the lifestyle. We can never live in a way, on our own, worthy of God. We can’t earn our way there. But, we can surrender everything to Him and allow Him to take control of our lives. Then, it is amazing to see what God brings out.
As for the conference, I think the name GodMan says it all. It looks like they are trying to be their own gods, rather than worship the one true God. I also agree with Paul. Worship is a life. A life sacrificed to the only One worthy of such sacrifice. Worship is in every breath, step and heartbeat.
Brian, I’m not perfect, and never will be. Remember that many who have begun the journey with Christ are just people too. Some will go off the deep end and suddenly start preaching a gospel of law: don’t smoke, don’t drink, don’t hang with those who do, and others may suddenly see grace for the first time and say “anything goes.” Neither is right, because both are returning to self-determination and not relying on God for their strength, but surrendering to Christ doesn’t make us like Him overnight. The bible demonstrates that even those God tells us about as champions of the faith had some real struggles and were “screwups” in the best sense of that term.
One thing that I am learning is that I’m not to focus on what others are doing or aren’t doing. When I do I can’t be fixing my eyes on Christ. And, when I do I end up comparing, which is just more of that self-focus that God is trying to free us from. You’ve made some great comments.
Kevin,
I’ve always been a bit more concerned with reality than appearance. With appearance we can do/ not do certain things that people will/will not approve of in terms of behavior.
But in reality, I’ve spent many years dealing with christians, even ministers, who, when not in the pulpit or in public, abuse their wife/kids verbally, or worse, who are angry and controlling, or worse, who are distant emotionally to a wife and kids, or worse, who will not listen, or worse who have kids that have fled any sense of church life at all, or worse, and I’ve come to see that it isn’t what goes in that “truly defiles” but what comes out, particularly in relationships.
This is, by no means, a carte blanc on external behavior, but it is a gut check about not straining at gnats and swallowing camels. I have a feeling that what people really want to see in christians is a safe place to be real/authentic, where such christians will be demonstrating what it is to be forgiving, merciful, honest, loving and all those things that The Father is being to us. Then when we speak of doing/not doing things there will be the ring of reality about it.
Somehow we’ve got to understand that the “being” is far more important than the “doing”. That’s the reality of Christ’s life fleshed out in us, in my opinion.
Paul B.
Paul,
I am talking about the conf. encouraging cussing - not messing up or slipping up. I am pro grace. I slip up too. But I would not have as part of worship a set time to cuss. We have been called to be holy.
Hello Brian Riley,
Thank you for your response. I know what you mean about not being perfect, while trying to please God, being on a journey, etc. After following the scriptures closely, praying, fasting, etc. over the years, I have been through it all. However, the lifestyle stuff that was so bothersome to me (and to many others who can’t accept the message of the church) is this “do as I say, not as I do” attitude that seems to be prevalent in many evangelical circles. That “I am a better Christian than you because I am at church every time the doors are open” attitude, that sort of thing. I mean … would the Godmen guys really advocate that cussing and smoking cigars is acceptable ONLY to them, but not to the unchurched to whom they, supposedly, are trying to reach?
An even bigger concern for me when I was in the church was the intolerance and bigotry that often accompanies such attitudes. Rev. T. D. Jakes recently said on TV, “you don’t know bigotry until you have experienced it in the church”, and even though I am no longer a Christian, I felt a big “Amen!” coming up. And I fully appreciate your desire to stay focused — regardless of how others might distract you. “Onward and upward!”, as we would say.
Back to the Godmen retreat: I just don’t get it, although I found it to be amusing. I viewed the promo video on their site. As I said in another message, I wondered if Al Bundy organized it … you know, the guys in the basement getting away from “the wife”. The thing that got me was that it seems as though the Godmen men are saying that the traditional type of worship, seeking God, etc. is boring to them, and that they have to try different things. It sounds like a phase, a fad, whatever. And this macho thing … is there some sort of requirement that a “real man” must fulfill before being accepted in the “fellow”ship? Of course, I’m joking, but talk about ego! And, as far as the cussing and cigar smoking go, wow, the church “men” sure are becoming more liberal as time progresses. How things are changing!
Brian from Canada,
You are right. We are called to be Holy not worldly.
Thanks, Kevin. I haven’t forgotten a thing; none of my Bible studies have escaped me yet. “Brian from Canada”, I love it!
Brian, have you ever read Desiring God, by John Piper? If you haven’t, give it a shot. I hear you. Believe it or not. I’ve danced the dance on all sides and am exhausted of the doublemindedness I had and see everywhere. But, none of that (frail humanity) is proof that God isn’t who He said He was and that He is love and desires to see our greatest good.
Hi Bryan R.,
No, I have not read that book, and thanks for the recommendation. However, I left the church almost 30 years ago (when I was young!) and I am afraid that when I made the decision, my patience had been worn beyond the point of no return. When I stop and think of the times I would cry and pray and seek God, and then go to church and go through that nonsense, I just finally had to grab myself and say, “what are you doing here — you obviously don’t belong.” After changing from one denomination to another, things seemed pointless, including my beliefs that I had in the Bible. Believe me, it was a very, very tough decision to make, but I felt there was no alternative. Anyway, if you have been able to stay and maintain your faith, then good for you, and I hope that the rest of your journey will be rewarding. And thanks again for your good comments.
Brian, when I read your comments I see that you changed from one denomination to another, and that you had beliefs in your bible, and that YOUR patience wore thin, and that you didn’t belong. And I hear that you would cry and pray and seek God, but is it possible, just possible, that you were still keeping one eye on what others were doing, or not doing, or that you were just not patient enough? I mean, I know I’m not patient enough. That is why I need Christ to be patience for me. Anyway, I have no expectation that my words here, on this blog, will persuade you to make some turn back to God. But, I want you to know that I will pray for you and I’d love for you to write me. I’d love to hear about your journey and where you are on that journey today. I’d love to share more of my journey with you. You can find my email at my blog profile at http://charisshalom.blogspot.com. Thanks for replying.
Kevin,
Actually, what you had said about the conference was not even in my thinking when I commented above with such a serious comment. To be candid, I’ve just performed a wedding for a guy who was terribly hurt by his father, a pastor, who was so anti–you name it, if it even hinted of “sin” he was mad about it, forbade it, and condemned his kids for some “things” that are more childish than sinful.
But, as you mght imagine, he sexually abused his youngest daughter and is in prison for it. So I’m trying to pick up the pieces of several lives of people who no longer trust christians must less preachers. So….
As I was sitting here thinking, with an “on computer,” which is dangerous for me anyway, and had just read one of my favorite bloggers make a simple comment about a ridiculous conference that would even think it important to provide a platform for being macho, as if any of that made one more manly, I began to think…[that should have been a clue to me of the danger of the moment] how we [my mind on that imprisoned preacher remember] sometimes judge spirituality so shallowly that I wrote….the above. Sorry.
Seriously, it had nothing to do with anything or anybody…except me. I believe it…wholeheartedly…but, for goodness sake, I don’t need to dump on you guys. Oh well…again, sorry.
Paul B.
Paul,
I appreciate you so much. I want to always err on the side of “GRACE.” I don’t ever look down on people (anymore) that do things I might think are wrong. I try to see life thru their eyes.
I would never want to have a service, Bible study or anything where in the vein of being “real” I sinned. Now to say I don’t get mad when I stub my toe or hammer my thumb, I’d be lying.
BTW,
We had Dr. John Blanchard in our church 2 weeks ago and he said hello!
Hi Bryan R.,
Thanks for the link to your site, but when I clicked on it, I got this message, “Page Not Found Error 404″. And thanks for your good words.
That’s because it is including a period after the com in the link above. This this: http://charisshalom.blogspot.com
Kevin,
There is a lot I would like to say about men and abuse to go along with what Paul was saying, but as Wes said on his blog, I have broken enough dishes this week.
God bless and in my not so humble opinion, I think you are much the man, plus you are a fine Christian gentleman
Thanks, Bryan R. Your site is very interesting. Actually, I saw the site months ago — I remembered some of the photos when I browsed through the archives.
Paul B–
Your insight is great. I believe I know the pastor you are speaking of, and their family too. We are concerned about things like an occasional cigar or beer, and there are people who have been so turned off by the actions of a few that they will never find their way back to church.
CB–
“broken enough dishes this week.” That sound you hear coming from the West is me, cracking up in Tulsa! Thanks for the laugh, my friend.
Canadian Kevin–
I would echo what others have said already. Don’t give up on Christianity because of the actions of some. I left vocational ministry because I was becoming cynical toward Christian people, and did not want to end up cynical about my faith. That is sad, but one thing I have come to realize and accept–people are morons. And they sin. A lot. That does not take away from God’s plan of redemption, or His plan for you and your life. My mom burned dinner once or twice, but I still eat her cooking whenever I get a chance ;>)
My concern is not whether or not a Christian drinks or smokes or eats too much. My concern is, do they recognize these things as areas that could need improvement. Like my pastor says, our concern is not necessarily where you are right now, our concern is, do you want to get better? Do you want to keep improving. My experience has taught me that all the things the church told me were wrong–drinking, smoking, cursing, etc., are not nearly as harmful as gossip, slander, idle talk, course jesting. The Bible says that all these other thinks are outside the body, but what comes out of our mouths are inside, and thus much more harmful. Yet the church doesn’t focus much on them. So I’m like everyone else, I just want to be more like Jesus.
Jason,
I could care less about a cigar or anything else. My point is I don’t see Jesus cussing. So why would a Christian organization promote a conference that encourages it? If a person slips up and does it I understand. But I don’t see that glorifying Christ. Sometimes in our desires to be “REAL” we forget God called us to be “HOLY.”
JasonK, I wonder if your comments to “Canadian Kevin” were meant for me, since you & I had exchanged a couple of comments on the weekend, along the same lines. I understand your point quite well, and also that of Kevin B.’s last post in this section. Thanks.
I could not agree more. I do not condone cursing, although, as I said earlier, there are times when it can add impact to what you are saying. I was driving with my pastor in the car one day, years ago, and there was a bumper sticker on a car which simply read, “election.” No idea what it meant, but it started us talking about the doctrine of election, and what would make a good Calvinist bumper sticker.
The idea he finally arrived at was this: “You’re lost. And there’s not a d**n thing you can do about it.” When he said that, I thought I was going to wreck the car from laughing.
I do not see Jesus cursing either. It just doesn’t add value to most conversations. And to me, it isn’t even real. People don’t generally curse at work, around clients, etc. So why do it in regular conversation.
My point, again, has been that we make a big fuss over cursing, when we should really be focusing on the most rampant sins of the tongue for Christians, which is gossip, etc.
Jason,
We are on the same page!
There’s a disconnect in what America sees as a man and what the Bible does. Drinking, smoking, cussin’? What’s next getting ladies pregnant in the back seat of your car sessions? It’s silly.
Do I think that the church has gotten it wrong in the definition of what a man is? Yes, I do. It’s mild and boring. Did Jesus walk in a white robe with fluffy hair petting lambs? I think not.
But there’s a thrid option not being exercised. Look to the men of the bible. Wild men who feared God. We should look to them for models.
Stuart,
I think you need to upload the “manly-man” video!
We know that real men don’t drink “Gingerbread latte’s”
Stuart–
we might want to be careful looking to men of the bible for our inspiration– some may choose David’s propensity for looking into women’s windows, or Solomon, who crawled into the back seat with a thousand women. Of course, that was old covenant ;>)
Realize this thread has been dead for quite a while, and honestly may not stumble my way back to it, but thought based on the intelligent back and forth discussion regarding “Godmen” event in Nashville, you might be interested in some input from somebody that was there.
I was one of the early registrations, got there early, helped set up, and would have stayed longer but had a 7 hour drive to get home for church the next day.
I don’t recall ever seeing/smelling a cigar, and there were maybe 10-12 profanities of any sort if that many. The profanity was not a “let’s encourage this” it was about allowing guys to speak from their gut and avoid the fake “I’m a Christian so I have to talk this way and in that tone and never offend anybody” junk that has caused so many to laugh at , rididcule, and walk away from anything regarding Christianity.
If I had to narrow down the entire day into one sentence it would be this - “Get rid of the masks, find some other men who won’t let you lie to them, and follow God with every ounce of your being.”
Granted, the Newsweek article chose to take the 30-60 seconds of an 8 hour event and make that the entire focus and punchline. Let’s ignore hours of talking and listening to guys spill their guts about how “going it alone” nearly destroyed their lives and marriages - would have had they not had wives willing to work with them and they found guys willing to help by being tough when needed. There were maybe 6 or 7 songs all day, a few of which could even begin to fall into the ‘humourous’ or light hearted category, and none were played more than once.
Bottom line it was about getting away from all the false masks that many men feel are required when they “do church”, the very hurdles that stop many men from ever going to church. If a “Godmen” event will allow a man to open up to what God wants for his life, to the point that he will take the steps of having other men after God come along side of him, then I say go for it.
I for one am sick of churches who “gasp” when they hear a 4 letter word used in a way that is in no way blasephemous to God or anyone else, but they have no problem with gluttony at the buffet when they talk about everybody else in the service - from what the teen girl was wearing to whatever problems they heard the couple in the next pew were having.
Was it perfect? No. Did they intend it to be? No. The event in question was actually a “let’s try this out - it may work, it may not, but let’s try something different to reach men who have never been reached.” They did not want it to be a high profile type of event - and did very little advertising beyond the immediate area - but when Newsweek and LA Times called and asked to send reporters, imagine what the story would have been if they’d said “No, reporters not allowed at Godmen!!!”
May God Bless each of you throughout your endeavors - inside church or outside!! God is more important than church!